Apologetics in This Rock

[rickL]

As a life long Catholic, I enjoy the fellowship in our church and embrace the Liturgy of the Mass. However, when I read the apologists statements to explain some of our traditions I am confounded.

I have studied hard and long to know my faith and am amazed at the lack of understanding within our church. Not only of Scriptures, but of our own teachings. There are many traditions in the church without full sanction of canon and only loose reference to the origins. Yet many cling to these legends as if they were “The Way, The Truth, and the Life”. There are abundant resources available to the church which are available to study and find the truth within our faith. We only need seek it out, instead of saying, that someone told me. We are accountable for what we know. If you are not sure, study in earnest and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you.

Many times, to make a point, Catholic apologists take scripture out of context, or draw conclusions to try to make it fit. And then have the nerve to say that the original texts have no value in the understanding of these Scriptures.

As Catholic Christians we have an enormous benefit in the Traditions of our church and the Scriptures to guide us. It would be beneficial to examine from the view of knowing the truth, NOT proving your point. That way the Holy Spirit can help understand that which the human mind cannot comprehend. That way, you can read of the early church fathers teachings AND the early church teaching AND examine Scriptures with the benefit of knowing what the original text says, with out the inflection of interpretations. Imagine someone trying to understand the American English language without the benefit of knowing the duality of our words! People here and now have trouble with this inexact language, much less removed a couple thousand years. At least the ancient Greek was a very exact language.

For centuries we followed the Latin Vulgate only to find many inaccuracies in it when we had the ancient scrolls found in the Dead Sea and the Masoretic texts. More accurate translations are now helping bring clarity to what was obscure before.

Let’s remember that much of the middle ages in the Roman Catholic Church, intellectual and well educated Priests, that may or may not have had a Christian life, tried to explain difficult Traditions and Scriptures to uneducated and illiterate people. From many of the documents of Vatican II, it appears some misrepresented the accuracy of Scripture and Tradition. Let’s not undo what has taken the Holy Spirit a thousand years to accomplish.

Let me just say that the Apostle’s Creed and Nicene Creed are the basic tenets of our faith. Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to get to heaven and He had a strong disregard for those that added burden to the Jews by man made laws, i.e. Scribes, Pharisees, Saducees, etc. If it does not further the Good News of Jesus why are we arguing about it.

The hymn, “They’ll Know We are Christians by our Love”, is an oxymoron in modern Christianity. We are spending more time fighting with each other over ridiculas interpretations and traditions that we are not being the hands, feet and heart of Jesus to a dying world. Now is the acceptable day of salvation and now is the time to get to work to bring the love of Jesus to the lost.

Now is the time to stop our silly bickering and foolish boasts of who is right! We should get on our faces and repent before a Holy God and ask His forgiveness for ignoring the lost to prove we are the best. Pride goes before the fall. If we will humble ourselves and repent He will be faithful to forgive us. Then we can get on with the Gospel Mission.

 

[Inkman]

Rick, not sure what you mean, exactly, can you give us some examples?

 

[jennstall]

Are you saying that the apologetics in This Rock is misleading? I’ve been thinking about subscribing so I’d like to hear more of what you have to say.

 

[copland]

I do agree that Cathoics need to learn their faith better. I have been a Protestant for about 10 years and I have always been bugged by the lack of zeal by alot of church goers period. I know a fellow who has been in church all his life in a Southern Baptist church that did not know the difference between the apostle Paul and King David. I know many other examples of many church goers. It is not just a Catholic thing but it is an American Christian thing. We are spoiled!!!http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon13.gif

But as a former Southern Baptist making his way to the Mother Church, I am so amazed at the richness and depth of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[albert_cipriani]

rickL:

For centuries we followed the Latin Vulgate only to find many inaccuracies in it when we had the ancient scrolls found in the Dead Sea and the Masoretic texts. More accurate translations are now helping bring clarity to what was obscure before.

Please give one example of an inaccuracy in the Latin Vulgate which the Dead Sea scrolls or Masoretic texts corrected.

And how can the Masoretic text correct anything Catholic, given that they were written by the Jews as late as the ninth century AD largely as a reaction to and polemic against Catholicism?-- Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

 

[MariaG]

Hi Rick,
Jesus also had a strong regard for authority and passed it down to His apostles and to His Church. He passed on the authority to make new rules and change them. It was one of the first things He did after He rose from the dead. There is a basic message that can be lost on some people, but there is also a fullness of the message that can and has been lost by many Christians.

Christ gave us the responsibility of spreading the good news. He did not tell to only give part of the good news. It is our responsibility as Catholic Christians to share the fullness of the truth which only resides in the Church Christ founded.

I personally do not feel sharing and spreading the truth is petty bickering. There are some pretty big issues that need the light of the fullness of the truth.

Mostly, I have to echo what most everyone else here has said, can you please be more specific?

There are many traditions in the church without full sanction of canon and only loose reference to the origins

Just start with one, and we’ll go from there.

Many times, to make a point, Catholic apologists take scripture out of context, or draw conclusions to try to make it fit. And then have the nerve to say that the original texts have no value in the understanding of these Scriptures.

Once again, one example and we can have dialogue on this issue. I personally have never seen an apologist say that the original texts have no value. Not saying that they haven’t, but many times? Who and where?

Your Sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[burnside]

rickL:

Many times, to make a point, Catholic apologists take scripture out of context, or draw conclusions to try to make it fit. And then have the nerve to say that the original texts have no value in the understanding of these Scriptures.

While i agree with some of what you say,i am baffled by the above.It is usually we who are accusing Protestants of quoting one or two lines of Scripture out of context and ignoring the rest of the paragraph.

 

[albert_cipriani]

rickL:

As a life long Catholic, I enjoy the fellowship in our church.

Then why haven’t you deigned to respond to a single one of your fellow Catholics in this thread you started? – Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

 

[puzzleannie]

I read TR from cover to cover each issue, and I am still waiting for specific examples from readers who disagree with its approach to apologetics of instances where TR disagrees with Catholic teaching.

Thank you from those non-Catholics who posted, your views are so refreshing and contribute so much to these forums. Sometimes we cradle Catholics get the idea that all Protestants read and study the Bible, and all Catholics are bible illiterate. In fact, Catholics who do devote time to adult faith formation and study are drawn to bible classes, but it is even more in Catholic tradition to pray with scripture–meditation, lectio divina etc.

At a meeting of youth leaders from area churches of all denominations I was astounded to hear an almost universal lament from all that their parents and youth do not read, understand, study and pray enough with the Bible, and that they find ignorance of scripture very hard to remedy in their congregations. guess we all have a lot of evangelizing to do within our own flocks.

 

[yinekka]

There are many traditions in the church without full sanction of canon and only loose reference to the origins.

Small ‘t’ tradition can equate to custom e.g. not eating meat on Friday and celibacy of the Latin Rite priesthood. These certainly can be changed.

Could you give me an example of the traditions you are talking about?

Many times, to make a point, Catholic apologists take scripture out of context, or draw conclusions to try to make it fit. And then have the nerve to say that the original texts have no value in the understanding of these Scriptures.

I would like to see some examples of this. I study apologetics in an amateur way and I don’t remember ever seeing Catholic apologists do what you have claimed. I am a new subscriber to This Rock and find that its apologetics are completely in line with the Magisterium.

I am not really familiar with the Latin Vulgate. Can you outline some of its ‘many inaccuracies’ for me please. The only one I know of is the "she shall crush ’ instead of the correct “He shall crush” in Genesis. We also have to remember to distinguish between the translation and what is being translated.

*From many of the documents of Vatican II, it appears some misrepresented the accuracy of Scripture and Tradition. *

What documents and where in the documents? I have a passing familiarity with the documents of Vatican II and can’t remember any passages saying what you are suggesting.

I note that this is your first post and so you may not know that when claims are made they should be sourced correctly.

 

[francisca]

rickL:

There are many traditions in the church without full sanction of canon and only loose reference to the origins. Yet many cling to these legends as if they were “The Way, The Truth, and the Life”.

Exactly. We have to always remember that “truth” has “layers of truth”. Some truths are more important than others. The lower layers can change (due to new revelation, new historical/ linguistic findings, etc----> tradition), but the upper layers are more “fixed”, and the top most (Jesus, the messiah, the son of the living God) is the HIGHEST truth. This is THE ONLY the ultimate FOUNDATION that cannot change forever.

As Catholic Christians we have an enormous benefit in the Traditions of our church and the Scriptures to guide us. It would be beneficial to examine from the view of knowing the truth, NOT proving your point. That way the Holy Spirit can help understand that which the human mind cannot comprehend.

Yes, we must seek the truth with all of our mind, heart and soul. We cannot argue for “denominational” nor “for the sake of argumentation itself”. We must seek the truth… The Church is seeking the truth too. It does not stop, so can’t we.

For centuries we followed the Latin Vulgate only to find many inaccuracies in it when we had the ancient scrolls found in the Dead Sea and the Masoretic texts. More accurate translations are now helping bring clarity to what was obscure before.

For centuries catholic church use the Latin Vulgate. But since Martin Luther translated the New Testament directly from Greek into German, there has been new findings that lead the church to new revelations: things we did not know before.

Not only from greek bible itself, science in history and linguistic also contribute to the exploration of truth. For instance nowadays we have computer. Now it’s so easy to find certain texts in scriptures.

Let’s remember that much of the middle ages in the Roman Catholic Church, intellectual and well educated Priests, that may or may not have had a Christian life, tried to explain difficult Traditions and Scriptures to uneducated and illiterate people. From many of the documents of Vatican II, it appears some misrepresented the accuracy of Scripture and Tradition. Let’s not undo what has taken the Holy Spirit a thousand years to accomplish.

Totally agree.

It takes thousands of years to come to this point. It does not mean we have to stop and refuse whatever is “new” and wanting to “go backward in time” to the past. We must move forward.

Some new revelations is difficult. But that is God’s will. It is written in the Bible that we have to “receive correction from God”.

Let me just say that the Apostle’s Creed and Nicene Creed are the basic tenets of our faith. Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to get to heaven and He had a strong disregard for those that added burden to the Jews by man made laws, i.e. Scribes, Pharisees, Saducees, etc. If it does not further the Good News of Jesus why are we arguing about it.

The hymn, “They’ll Know We are Christians by our Love”, …

The law is passive. It is up to man how to practice the law : out of self righteousness as the result of MERE observance, or by knowing God’s Mercy, Love and Holiness" in all things. The law give us knowledge about God’s Holiness and Justice. Yet, our faith in Him makes us understand His Love and Mercy.

The law has to SERVE God’s Love. Any regulations, rules, guidelines, policies, constitutions : they are servants to God’s rule —> God’s love for man.

Jesus is the King of kings. It is written that God put all kings under His feet. This means all RULERs (and so their RULEs too) has to submit to Jesus.

God bless us all.

 

[francisca]

yinekka:

Could you give me an example of the traditions you are talking about?

Tradition that says “Peter” is the “ROCK”. This is subject to “context” (and therefore is under scrutinize of scientific truths). But Jesus as THE ROCK, is not subject to any context (nor any scientific truths). It is the highest truth and that cannot change. This Truth is unmoveable and therefore IS THE FOUNDATION.

 

[MariaG]

Actually, it is Scripture that calls Peter the Rock.

Mt 16:18 upon this rock I will build my church

 

[mayra_hart]

i was raised in puerto rico were most of the people are catholic so rarely you have encountered where you have to defend your faith. then i move to the states an now that iam living in texas where a lot of people are fundamentals is good to know about your faith so if the times come you can defend it. the catholic church today is being challenge vigorously by non catholic evangelizers. unfortunately many catholics feel illprepared to defend their faith in the face of these attacks. so this is why we need apologetics.god bless you all

 

[edwinG]

MariaG:

Hi Rick,
Jesus also had a strong regard for authority and passed it down to His apostles and to His Church. He passed on the authority to make new rules and change them. It was one of the first things He did after He rose from the dead. There is a basic message that can be lost on some people, but there is also a fullness of the message that can and has been lost by many Christians.

Christ gave us the responsibility of spreading the good news. He did not tell to only give part of the good news. It is our responsibility as Catholic Christians to share the fullness of the truth which only resides in the Church Christ founded.

I personally do not feel sharing and spreading the truth is petty bickering. There are some pretty big issues that need the light of the fullness of the truth.

Mostly, I have to echo what most everyone else here has said, can you please be more specific?

Just start with one, and we’ll go from there.

Once again, one example and we can have dialogue on this issue. I personally have never seen an apologist say that the original texts have no value. Not saying that they haven’t, but many times? Who and where?

Your Sister in Christ,
Maria

Hi Maria,
I am not a catholic, so my bible is not the same as yours. I use a NKJV. I cant find in my bible where Christ “passed on the authority to make new rules and change them. It was one of the first things He did after He rose from the dead” The only real reference along these lines in my bible is Matthew 28:20 “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you: and lo I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” which is not in alignment with what you say. I admit the bible does seem to contradict itself in places when our understanding is lacking in that area. Possibly I am missing something. I ask for your help. thanks edwinG. Christ be with you. Walk in love.

 

[francisca]

MariaG:

Actually, it is Scripture that calls Peter the Rock.

Mt 16:18 upon this rock I will build my church

It is very easy for us-- using computer – to find that the word “ROCK” in the old testament refers to God.

So, some people question whether “the tradition” that is built upon Mt 16:18 is built in the correct context as Jesus intended it to be.

[my point from previous discussion about peter as the rock :
Especially because John 1:42 wrote that simon’s new name is “Kephas” not “Kepha” (with “s - sigma” at the back). Logically greek transliteration of “Kepha” would not include any “s” sound. May be this “s” sound tries to transliterate “uth” sound so the aramaic word is “Kepath” (not Kepha) which means “petros” just as John correctly traslate it “petros” and not “petra”.]

What does Matthew 16:18 mean? Is peter the leader of the church as an institution, while Jesus is the Foundation of Peter’s faith, and The Whole Church Faith?

What does this mean for the tradition that was built merely based on “peter as The ROCK” ?

Let us pray for The Holy Spirit guidance for our faith and for the Church.

 

[francisca]

I feel that I need to add :

The Church has to be founded on faith and not on the law.

My personal opinion on this is :

The development and progress in the Church should not necessarily mean The Catholic Church would vanish. Instead, it will become stronger in FAITH, just like repentant Peter who got up from “his fear”, then later boldly preach and strenghten his brothers. For it is written that-- no matter what-- “God will carry us through”, bearing on His shoulder all our wrongdoings and give us His righteousness.

Just a personal opinion, founded in faith of something I cannot see but I fervently hope for.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

 

[MariaG]

Hi Edwin,
Actually, I usually use my NKJV Max Lucado Inspirational Study Bible when I quote from the Bible. I have more Protestant Bibles than Catholic since that is where my walk with Christ began.

Mt 16:19 And I will give your the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

There was a great thread/post on this about how Jewish leaders had the authority to make and change the rules, unfortunately, I can’t find it. Here, Christ gave that authority to the Peter, and through Peter, the Church.

I mistakenly said it was one of the first things He did when He rose from the dead. Sorry for the confusion

But one of the first things He did do after He rose from the dead was to establish The Sacrament of Reconcilliation. John 20:21-23. 23If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.

Once again, sorry for any confusion. And Catholic Bibles are the same as Protestant Bibles, they just have the books that were removed during the Reformation. Obviously the commentary would be different along with the translation differences, but the verses don’t change that much. That was just my error!

 

[puzzleannie]

I am still looking for specific instances in TR where Catholic teaching has been mistated as the original post declares. I will check back in a week or so and see if we can get back on track with this thread.

 

[Strider]

Until we hear from rickL again (if we ever do), I think we should consider this whole thread a red herring planted by Protestant to get us Catholics going.
I must say, he’s done a pretty good job.

God bless