Apologetics on Vatican II

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fish90

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Hello,

What are some good web sites or books in order to answer my questions about Vatican II?

Here they are:

1.)Why have a new Ecumenical Council? What issues needed to be clarified or developed? What goals were to come from the Council?
-I understand that Vatican II was a continuation of Vatican I and that the Pope at the time understood this to be a great time for renewal in the Church. The Church was to be “jump-started” in order to combat the new heresies of the times and continue Christ’s mission. Doctrines like No Salvation Outside the Church among others were further clarified in order to promote a new ecumenism among other reasons. The goals of Vatican II however seemed to have taken much more time to bear fruit than what was previously hoped.

2.) Why a new liturgy?
I understand that there was concern that the liturgy needed more active participation from the laity so a new order of the Mass was written which left (even though never discontinued) the Mass the Church had for centuries to be much forgotten in countries like the U.S. until recently. This change caused an uproar among traditional Catholics questioning this swift change. The new form of the Mass called the Ordinary Form was very different from the previous or Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

I would appreciate any response. Also, giving quick answers to these questions without me reading a whole book would be even better.😃

Best,
fish90
 
fish90 said:
Hello,

What are some good web sites or books in order to answer my questions about Vatican II?

Here they are:

1.)Why have a new Ecumenical Council? What issues needed to be clarified or developed? What goals were to come from the Council?
-I understand that Vatican II was a continuation of Vatican I and that the Pope at the time understood this to be a great time for renewal in the Church. The Church was to be “jump-started” in order to combat the new heresies of the times and continue Christ’s mission. Doctrines like No Salvation Outside the Church among others were further clarified in order to promote a new ecumenism among other reasons. The goals of Vatican II however seemed to have taken much more time to bear fruit than what was previously hoped.

2.) Why a new liturgy?
I understand that there was concern that the liturgy needed more active participation from the laity so a new order of the Mass was written which left (even though never discontinued) the Mass the Church had for centuries to be much forgotten in countries like the U.S. until recently. This change caused an uproar among traditional Catholics questioning this swift change. The new form of the Mass called the Ordinary Form was very different from the previous or Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

I would appreciate any response. Also, giving quick answers to these questions without me reading a whole book would be even better.😃

Best,
fish90
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i too, i am interested in hear why all the changes, including the priest facing the people instead of East, a Tradition since the Apostles time.
 
Hi Fish,

Get the info straight from the horse’s mouth. Pope John XXIII gave the why’s and wherefore’s of the Council in his address to it on the opening day,.catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0261i.htm

On liturgical matters, read what the Council actually said in Sacrosanctum Concilium.
ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/v2litur.htm

About the new mass and the old mass, I would point out that the old mass actually dates from a reform in 1962. This reform did not make any radical changes; still it is not the “mass of the ages” that some would make it to be. As for the old-old mass, its universal application dates from 1570.

What do you think of my suggestions?

Verbum
 
Verbum said:
About the new mass and the old mass, I would point out that the old mass actually dates from a reform in 1962. This reform did not make any radical changes; still it is not the “mass of the ages” that some would make it to be. As for the old-old mass, its universal application dates from 1570.

Verbum
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Can you please share more on this issue? What were other liturgies like prior to 1570?

I will read or skim (the second is pretty long:D) the links latter.

Thanks,
fish90
 
First, can I say that I think we very fortunate to live in the light of this great council.
fish90 said:
1.)Why have a new Ecumenical Council? What issues needed to be clarified or developed? What goals were to come from the Council?
-I understand that Vatican II was a continuation of Vatican I and that the Pope at the time understood this to be a great time for renewal in the Church. The Church was to be “jump-started” in order to combat the new heresies of the times and continue Christ’s mission. Doctrines like No Salvation Outside the Church among others were further clarified in order to promote a new ecumenism among other reasons. The goals of Vatican II however seemed to have taken much more time to bear fruit than what was previously hoped.
Click to expand...
VII was summoned to complete the work of VI as spoken of many times by both Pius XI and Pius XII. John XXIII wanted to open the windows of the Church and let in some fresh air. He said that the purpose of the Council was to strengthen doctrine and improve ecclesiastical discipline.
fish90 said:
2.) Why a new liturgy?
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Sacrosanctum Concilium (Dec 4th 1963) was the first of the decrees to be passed mainly because it provided common ground for both the liberal and conservative factions of the council that there needed to be greater participation in the liturgy, especially on the part of the laity and in the Eucharist, and, second, the need to return to the sources of the liturgy. This was the culmination of various initiatives in the years before the council, such as Mediator Dei (Pius XII, 1947) and developments by many scholars, notably Benedictine monks, on improving understanding of the liturgy of the early Church.

The decree itself is clear:

“The Church very much wants all believers to be led to take a full, conscious and active participation in liturgical celebration. This is demanded by the nature of the liturgy itself: and, by virtue of their baptism, it is the right and duty of the Christian people.”
fish90 said:
I understand that there was concern that the liturgy needed more active participation from the laity so a new order of the Mass was written which left (even though never discontinued) the Mass the Church had for centuries to be much forgotten in countries like the U.S. until recently.
Click to expand...
It’s more that there was a loop hole that was sort of exploited. The decree states that the “…use of the Latin language is to be maintained in the Latin rites” although it immediately leaves a loophole.
fish90 said:
This change caused an uproar among traditional Catholics questioning this swift change. The new form of the Mass called the Ordinary Form was very different from the previous or Extraordinary Form of the Mass.
Click to expand...
In some senses this is undoubtedly true, but I can also see how, fundamnetally, there is little change. Indeed, reading through the Canons of Nicea, one can recognise Novus Ordo. Certainly if one reads the first full account of the Mass (written in 150 AD by St. Justin Martyr) you can clearly see the structure that was being re-invoked by the council.

In Mass of Ages, February 2009, Fr Gary Dickson argued that post-Vatican II the liturgical life of the Church had been seized by reformers misinterpreting the documents of the Council. Mgr Ignacio Barreiro has since argued that Vatican II must only be understood in the light of Tradition. However, Moyra Doorly has examined some of the principles of the twentieth century liturgical movement which influenced the Council and argues that the “rationalised liturgy” of Paul VI was an inevitable and problematic consequence.

I was born in 1971 and never experienced what we now call the EF until Summorum Pontificum. My first reaction was “that’s why they changed it”, but I have come to really love the deep reverence evident in this Mass. I do think that Novus Ordo can be as beautiful if done right, but the unfortunate truth is that it often isn’t done with due reverence. Summorum Pontificum has provided the stimulus for a return to the reverence which is essential for us all to retain a proper perspective on the Mass. It has demonstrated with extraordinary clarity to me the axiom lex orandi, lex credendi. I have seen it in a local parish, where there is a tremendous resurgence of true faith and Catholicity, due to the placement of a particularly excellent priest-- Fr. Kevin Hale (all hail Father Kevin! 🙂 👍
 
fish90 said:
giving quick answers to these questions without me reading a whole book would be even better.😃
Click to expand...
Reading will do you good. 🙂 Pick up A CONCISE GUIDE TO THE DOCUMENTS OF VATICAN 2 … @ Barnes & Noble … for 10 bills. Only 160 pages.
 
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