Apologetics Questions

[John_Carlton]

First of all, I apologise for the vague title of the thread, now I’ll apologise in advance for a lengthy post.

Anyway. I’ve been volunteering at a community education centre as of late and have become, I suppose you could say, the ‘token Catholic.’ The good people with whom I am working are very curious about the Faith, and I am more than happy to discuss it with them. I’ve done, up until fairly recently, fairly well. I’ve explained such things as the Blessed Trinity, the role of Christ. It warrants mentioning that the people with whom I am working are predominately Moslem. I preface the following questions that I now have with the disclaimer that I am in no wise lapsing in my faith, simply lacking in resources to answer certain questions.

One of the questions that I was asked and now wish to convey is: how can the Bible be the Word of God when it has inherent contradictions, i.e. the diffent Last Words of Christ on the Cross in the Synoptic Gospels. In Mark and Matthew and mark Our Lord asks; “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me.” In Luke He asks nothing, instead states: “into Thy hands I commend My spirit.” Now, I know the question can easily be answered, but how would I go about explaining this to a Moslem? I don’t wish to lapse into polemics as the people asking are very nice. Also, how do I explain the nature of Divine Inspiration? The Moslems I am working with seem to have difficulty accepting how the Bible can be God’s Word when It was written by man.

The second issue I encountered but had trouble resolving was the nature of the Godhead. I succeeded in showing them that we (Catholics) are indeed Monotheists but may have inadvertently invented a heresy by attempting to explain how Jesus is God when He incarnated into the world. I attempted to explain the Trinity through use of metaphor (have you ever played a videogame where you control a character? - the character is like an extension of yourself… the same but different.) But the language barrier prevents the use of metaphorical language and I don’t want to sound like a Monophysite. I’m going to bring a book I have that explains Catholicism, it has pictures… might help.

The third issue I had is my skin seems to be thicker than theirs. When I broached the topic of the man who began their religious tradition in attempting to probe the nature of Divine Inspiration I was met with a definite anxiety. See, after the man I was talking to asked about Inspiration, I asked how he knows Mohamed wrote down everything he allegely heard from the visitor to his cave without error. He answered that he knows because Mohamed was illiterate.

I guess, most specifically, I would like to know from anyone who has dealt with apologising Moslems, or better still someone who has converted from Islam what the proper etiquette is in explaining the Faith. I have recyled much of what I hear on the radio and from Catholic podcasts in explaining the Trinity, as well as thinking outside the box, but my efforts were only marginally successful. I understand that people on the Forums are very fond of providing links, so if you folks have any suggestions in that realm I would be deeply appreciative. Thanks in advance for your answers.

God bless,

 

[ivecomeback]

I once had a professor who proved the existence of God through thermodynamics. I think that this explanation comes from him:

Water can take the form of a solid (ice), liquid, or gas (steam) yet all are water. Now think about a foggy day in March when all the snow is just starting to melt. Let’s say you are standing in a melting snow drift in this fog. The snow is solid, the liquid water is seeping into your shoes, and you are inhaling the fog (vapor). They are all water - just three different forms surrounding you. The Trinity is something like that too in that God is at the same time Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I’m not sure if that explanation is technically or theologically sound, but it worked for me.

 

[JD27076]

The fact that the Gospels are not EXACTLY on dot, even more proves their validity.

Take this for example, when a criminal investigator comes and asks two people about this crime, lets say a bank robbery.
Lets examine what witnesses would say, whats right and wrong.

If these two people say the same exact thing, with only very little differ. They are telling a lie. They have been told this by one person.

Now if these two people say the same idea, but with differences, such as one says its blue, the other says blue-green. Or the car was running a red light, and the other says the yellow light, they are telling the truth. They have differences, but the same idea. They have not been told this by a singular person in retrospect.

This is like how the gospels were set up. They have the SAME idea, but with differences. If Matthew and Mark got together to come up with a story, and theirs are almost identical. They made it up, but its not. Its the same idea, but with differences and opinions.

This just very well proves, the Gospels validity and the Bible’s.

God bless.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Father Mitch Pacwa co-wrote a book with a muslim that converted concerning your topic. That would be a good resource. (forget the title).
Fr. Mitch once told me that if a muslim asks you how you know that person was Christ on the cross, since many think it was an imposter, you can say that His mother recognized His cloths. Doesn’t make much sense until you know that muslim mothers made their children’s clothing back in that time. One area of similarity is Mary.

mdcpensive1

 

[AdesteFideles]

Please forgive me if I am brief. Your post raises so many various thoughts, that I don’t feel I could do everything justice within the next few hours.

One of the questions that I was asked and now wish to convey is: how can the Bible be the Word of God when it has inherent contradictions…

You have to keep in mind, that Islam teaches that the Qur’an has existed in eternity with Allah always; that it had no beginning. (We won’t get into the specific problems this poses theologically.) The Muslim, therefore, will view our own perception of Scripture quite differently. It is inherently unintelligible to their way of thinking, that men should write things of their own accord, under the inspiration of God. This is almost stupid to them.

Likewise, you should bear in mind that Muslims are most prone to believe that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospels, whilst being revealed by Allah – but not eternal – nonetheless have been heavily corrupted. Their oral tradition demands this, although this itself poses a tension with certain verses in the Qur’an which seem to testify to the reliability of such works. (Many critics would agree this is because the authors of the Qur’an had… problems … due to their never reading what those works contained.)

Also, Muslims love to use liberal criticism of Holy Writ, without taking into consideration the fact that such criticism likewise usually shreds the Qur’an to pieces. They are not consistent or honest in their choice of scholars.

Lastly, Scripture must at least be permitted to speak as a whole; and Muslims love to allow small sections to speak whilst ignoring or silencing others. If someone refuses to (even for a moment) allow for the possibility of harmony, they are at a disadvantage.

The second issue I encountered but had trouble resolving was the nature of the Godhead. I succeeded in showing them that we (Catholics) are indeed Monotheists but may have inadvertently invented a heresy by attempting to explain how Jesus is God when He incarnated into the world.

This made me smile. Do you know, I think when most folks describe the Blessed Trinity, they unfortunately run in to the same problem as you did.

For Muslims, the most that needs to be addressed is simply that:

(a) We are indeed Monotheists! But we are Trinitarian Monotheists versus Unitarian Monotheists. The monotheism of the Blessed Trinity is that God is one being; but the Trinitarian aspect is that God is three persons within this one being. The first thing which should be demonstrated is that there is no contradiction in anything previously stated; and neither are accusations of contradiction a valid way to demonstrate we are wrong or somehow not monotheists.

(b) Muslims need to remember that we feel that God is indeed powerful enough to enter His creation should He so will; and that there is no inconsistency with one of the persons of the Blessed Trinity accepting a human nature, and with the omnipotence of God. If they claim that God cannot do such a thing, it is up to them to demonstrate what it is they see as being problematic. They usually will be able to do little more than simply assert the Incarnation is not possible, perhaps buttressing it with theological observations which touch only upon the eternal divine nature. This last part needs to be pointed out to them.

The third issue I had is my skin seems to be thicker than theirs. When I broached the topic of the man who began their religious tradition in attempting to probe the nature of Divine Inspiration I was met with a definite anxiety.

Perhaps it might be good to bring up this issue of an eternal Qur’an with them.

Lastly, you mentioned links. I would recommend you go to the Institute of Catholic Culture, and CTRL-F the lectures entitled The Closing of the Muslim Mind.

 

[John_Carlton]

Thanks all,

I’ll definitely have to look into the links here. I’ve been invited by Zahid to attend an interfaith conference at USM. I ought to be able to learn quite a bit by attending. One of the things that was holding me back was my understanding of Islam is about as rudimentary as their understanding of Catholicism. I’ve read about half or two thirds of the Qur’an before I converted and was finished ‘shopping’ for faith, but I have my doubts as to whether I can fully grasp Islam simply by reading their bible.

I did, in fact, encounter the ‘replacement theory,’ wherein it is stated that God substituted Christ. The woman I was talking to said, “that He changed His face” to confuse the Jews. So there’s that. I made some leeway by explaining how the Old Testament flows into the new. I understand that Islam has a similar understanding of Adam and Eve, which I was able to use in explaining Original Sin and the nature of the Passion, Death and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus and how It relates to Salvation.

In one of the posts here it was mentioned that many Moslems might be dishonest in dealing with the Bible. I didn’t get that feeling, although I’m certain there are some who are. They’ve been fed some very haphazard misinformation, but are nevertheless genuinely interested in learning about us. It’s true, if I applied the same criticisms of theirs to the Bible onto the Qur’an, I rather doubt they would have been as calm in their defence. The polemicist in me wanted to jump on the story of Mohamed riding his horse to the moon… or asking why Saint Gabriel would demand of an illiterate a perfectly written book… or why the Qur’anic early manuscripts were laden with syntactical errors… but I don’t think that would have been fair of me.

God bless,

 

[White_Peony]

One of the questions that I was asked and now wish to convey is: how can the Bible be the Word of God when it has inherent contradictions, i.e. the diffent Last Words of Christ on the Cross in the Synoptic Gospels. In Mark and Matthew and mark Our Lord asks; “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me.” In Luke He asks nothing, instead states: “into Thy hands I commend My spirit.”
God bless,

Now, if you and I saw the same movie, we would retell it differently because we remembered it differently.

So is it with the Gospels. The Gospel writers are just as human as we are.

 

[pablope]

First of all, I apologise for the vague title of the thread, now I’ll apologise in advance for a lengthy post.

Anyway. I’ve been volunteering at a community education centre as of late and have become, I suppose you could say, the ‘token Catholic.’ The good people with whom I am working are very curious about the Faith, and I am more than happy to discuss it with them. I’ve done, up until fairly recently, fairly well. I’ve explained such things as the Blessed Trinity, the role of Christ. It warrants mentioning that the people with whom I am working are predominately Moslem. I preface the following questions that I now have with the disclaimer that I am in no wise lapsing in my faith, simply lacking in resources to answer certain questions.

One of the questions that I was asked and now wish to convey is: how can the Bible be the Word of God when it has inherent contradictions, i.e. the diffent Last Words of Christ on the Cross in the Synoptic Gospels. In Mark and Matthew and mark Our Lord asks; “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me.” In Luke He asks nothing, instead states: “into Thy hands I commend My spirit.” Now, I know the question can easily be answered, but how would I go about explaining this to a Moslem? I don’t wish to lapse into polemics as the people asking are very nice. Also, how do I explain the nature of Divine Inspiration? The Moslems I am working with seem to have difficulty accepting how the Bible can be God’s Word when It was written by man.

The second issue I encountered but had trouble resolving was the nature of the Godhead. I succeeded in showing them that we (Catholics) are indeed Monotheists but may have inadvertently invented a heresy by attempting to explain how Jesus is God when He incarnated into the world. I attempted to explain the Trinity through use of metaphor (have you ever played a videogame where you control a character? - the character is like an extension of yourself… the same but different.) But the language barrier prevents the use of metaphorical language and I don’t want to sound like a Monophysite. I’m going to bring a book I have that explains Catholicism, it has pictures… might help.

The third issue I had is my skin seems to be thicker than theirs. When I broached the topic of the man who began their religious tradition in attempting to probe the nature of Divine Inspiration I was met with a definite anxiety. See, after the man I was talking to asked about Inspiration, I asked how he knows Mohamed wrote down everything he allegely heard from the visitor to his cave without error. He answered that he knows because Mohamed was illiterate.

I guess, most specifically, I would like to know from anyone who has dealt with apologising Moslems, or better still someone who has converted from Islam what the proper etiquette is in explaining the Faith. I have recyled much of what I hear on the radio and from Catholic podcasts in explaining the Trinity, as well as thinking outside the box, but my efforts were only marginally successful. I understand that people on the Forums are very fond of providing links, so if you folks have any suggestions in that realm I would be deeply appreciative. Thanks in advance for your answers.

God bless,

Go to this site…it is a from a catholic who studied Islam…and is very informative, the founder was also on CA Live several months ago…I think you can get the interview from the archives of this CA forums.

jihadwatch.org/

The founder’s name is Robert Spencer.

And this book (I heard [either Tim Staples or John Martinogni] mention this book on CA Live for bible questions as a good one even though by a protestant)…but can answer common objections and bible inconsistencies…christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/1283823803?item_no=4311EB&item_code=WW&netp_id=840862&event=ESRCN&view=details

Publisher’s Description
This accessible volume offers readers clear and concise answers to alleged major Bible difficulties from Genesis to Revelation, staunchly defending the authority and inspiration of Scripture. Written in a problem/solution format, the book covers dozens of questions–old and new–that critics and doubters raise about the Bible. Multipurpose in scope and user-friendly in format, in many ways Making Sense of Bible Difficulties offers the resources of five books in one: a critical commentary on the whole Bible an apologetics text a Bible difficulties reference a theology manual treating important doctrines a handbook on verses misused by cults

 

[Perplexity]

Here’s a response I’ve seen some more traditionally minded Christians give to the problem of Biblical contradictions: the documents that were inspired were the autographa, not the copies. It’s plausible to think all the autographa are within the biblical manuscripts we have even though various addenda and interpolations also exist within this manuscript tradition. So, you’d have to prove that the contradiction(s) existed in the autographa, which is too difficult to do.

Now, they might respond to this by saying: “But, then you’re not warranted in thinking they’re inerrant!”

To this, you may have a good reply: "Look, Jesus resurrected, so we can trust his teachings. After Paul converted to Christianity, he spent significant time with Jesus’ top Apostles, multiple times as well, attempting to learn Jesus’ teachings. So, we can trust Paul as an authority on Jesus’ teachings. Paul teaches us that Scripture is theopneustos. Therefore, we can trust him that it is.

Obviously, this leaves open the problem of what counts as Scripture, but I’m sure you’ve got various arguments for that as well. Anyways, if you can succeed with all that ^, then you can say your belief in inerrancy is innocent until proven guilty. I think.

 

[steve_b]

One of the questions that I was asked and now wish to convey is: how can the Bible be the Word of God when it has inherent contradictions, i.e. the diffent Last Words of Christ on the Cross in the Synoptic Gospels. In Mark and Matthew and mark Our Lord asks; “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me.” In Luke He asks nothing, instead states: “into Thy hands I commend My spirit.” Now, I know the question can easily be answered, but how would I go about explaining this to a Moslem?

Jesus said both. Neither Mark or Matthew said “these are the last words of Christ”. Ergo we have 2 accounts that don’t contradict each other.
JC:

I don’t wish to lapse into polemics as the people asking are very nice. Also, how do I explain the nature of Divine Inspiration? The Moslems I am working with seem to have difficulty accepting how the Bible can be God’s Word when It was written by man.

written by men but not inspired by men, but by God. If it was inspired by men, why put your faith and soul in the hands of that?
JC:

The second issue I encountered but had trouble resolving was the nature of the Godhead. I succeeded in showing them that we (Catholics) are indeed Monotheists but may have inadvertently invented a heresy by attempting to explain how Jesus is God when He incarnated into the world. I attempted to explain the Trinity through use of metaphor (have you ever played a videogame where you control a character? - the character is like an extension of yourself… the same but different.) But the language barrier prevents the use of metaphorical language and I don’t want to sound like a Monophysite. I’m going to bring a book I have that explains Catholicism, it has pictures… might help.

Keep in mind, Muslims don’t accept God as Father, He’s not personal, He has no children…etc etc.

• Muslims think God is the God of Abraham ----> ishmael —> in that line.
• Scripture says God’s covenant is from Abraham ----> Isaac---->Jacob—> in THAT line. There is no covenant in that other direction.

for an explanation of the Trinity

cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=136
JC:

The third issue I had is my skin seems to be thicker than theirs. When I broached the topic of the man who began their religious tradition in attempting to probe the nature of Divine Inspiration I was met with a definite anxiety. See, after the man I was talking to asked about Inspiration, I asked how he knows Mohamed wrote down everything he allegely heard from the visitor to his cave without error. He answered that he knows because Mohamed was illiterate.

And what happend after that little ditty got divulged?
JC:

I guess, most specifically, I would like to know from anyone who has dealt with apologising Moslems, or better still someone who has converted from Islam what the proper etiquette is in explaining the Faith. I have recyled much of what I hear on the radio and from Catholic podcasts in explaining the Trinity, as well as thinking outside the box, but my efforts were only marginally successful. I understand that people on the Forums are very fond of providing links, so if you folks have any suggestions in that realm I would be deeply appreciative. Thanks in advance for your answers.

God bless,

My suggestion is, if you don’t know an answer well enough to state it clearly, say I’ll get back to you on that. Don’t wing it. Say something like, you deserve a better answer than I can give you off the cuff, let me get back to you on that. Then post your question here and see what kind of help you can get.