Apologetics swallowed-up by Cinema?

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Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church.

Hollyweird is being run by Satan.

I’ll follow the Church Christ founded, His body, His Catholic Church.
 
Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church.

Hollyweird is being run by Satan.

I’ll follow the Church Christ founded, His body, His Catholic Church.
 
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Pace:
radio-cipher,

Would you mind sharing your thoughts on these subjects and how they may relate to what I was saying? And maybe you could give a list of the Sirk films you would recommend?
I’ll try…it’s late and I’m tired but I think maybe one of the things that excites you about Lynch’s and von Trier’s films (I have seen Blue Velvet, the Idiots, and Dancer in the Dark but no others) is that they express something extra, that’s not shown or spoken explicitly in the CONTENT of the film. I think that Roland Barthes referred to this in his writings as “significance” or something like that, a sort of third (obtuse?) meaning created by the synthesis of form and content and mood and context and whatnot. I’m sorry I’m not very good at explaining, it’s not very complicated really though. You know how a text in translation is sometimes not like the original language and not like the language that it’s supposed to be translated to, but more like a third sort of new language? Like badly translated instruction manuals? It’s sort of a case of 2 + 2 = 5 or maybe 2 + 2 = tree. To a certain extent ALL film does this, but a film with a particular sort of loaded ambiguity does it much more succesfully than a very straightforward film, or a film with very predictable “symbols”.
Now Douglas Sirk is interesting in a sort of parallel way I think. He made films in the fifties that were sort of melodramatic weepies for housewives, like “Imitation of Life” and “All That Heaven Allows”, but his films were pretty strange. The acting was (intentionally?) bad in a way that really made suspension of disbelief difficult, and the melodrama and double entendres were quite over-the-top. They seem to me almost like ambiant films in a way, or meta-films, because they keep your focus somewhere slightly outside of the screen. In addition to looking out of the window, you’re also looking AT the window. The reason I say ambiant is because I sort of feel like someone watching a film when I’m watching them. like I am in a movie myself and the Sirk movie is in the background of the movie that I’m in.
Now negative theology. Well…negative theology is sort of about intentionally NOT speaking or describing. It’s about loaded silences and oblique glances. Because I’m very tired, please forgive me for cutting and pasting something I wrote for another website a few years ago:
 
"Negative theology, as I understand it, is mostly an issue of semantics. Sometimes referred to as the “via negativa”, or “apophatic theology”, it exists both as a companion to, and critique of affirmative theology, which attempts to describe the nature of “God”. In most monotheistic theologies this positive method proclaims the deity as an omniscient, omnipotent entity, good, just and loving. It is common to hear “God is love”, “God is eternal”, “God is everything.” But since it is also assumed as a given that “God” transcends all human experience, one therefore must come to the understanding that these declarations are undermined by the limitations of language, the limitations of thought, to describe that which cannot be experienced. Human concepts are derived from human experience (although one could also say that we cannot experience that which we are incapable of conceptualizing).

Negative theology is basically one very simple idea. One cannot say anything about what God is. One can only say what God isn’t. We can say that God is not “finite”. We can say that God is not “good”, meaning by this not that God is “bad”, but simply that God is not “good”. The important thing here is that all these things that God is not are in quotations. To say that God is not good, and not finite (minus the quotations), sets up a paradox, a contradiction inherent in the definition of “God as Everything”. If God is everything, then It must be finite as well as infinite, evil as well as good, mustn’t It? If we say that God is not “everything” we’re doing slightly better, but we’re getting dangerously close to imposing limitations on the deity. We enter into an ontological semantic chaos, a confusion which brings us to the end of Negative Theology Part One."
 
"Negative Theology Part Two.
And so one may conclude that maybe it is better not to say anything at all regarding “God”, beyond that which can be directly experienced, and keeping in mind all the while that these experiences will always be subjective. Any assumption, any association, all adjectives and nouns and verbs that come to mind when one hears the word “God”, are subject to suspicion. They must be crossed out, and denied, because they are pathetically insufficient, inherently unworthy. All names must be un-named. In the silence that remains we have our negative theology.

Silence” is the absence of noise. You can’t have the former without the latter, the existence of each of these concepts is dependent upon their binary opposition. It’s the same with invisibility and visibility, the known and the unknown, the experienced and the inexperienceable. The silence of negative theology is a loaded silence. When we say that something is invisible, we are affirming that that something Is, despite the fact that it can’t be seen. Negative theology refuses to speak of God, and in this way affirms that there is something of which it is not speaking. Negative theology is affirmative theology. It is a way of understanding through unlearning.

The aforementioned oppositions are contradictions only in the semantic realm. The words “small” and “large”, “true” and “untrue”, may be antonyms, conceptually opposite, but for a transcendent God these words are meaningless and oppositions are deconstructed. Contradiction and paradox are a deity’s birthright. In Christian mystical tradition, the via negativa method is most predominant in the writings of Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite (aka Pseudo-Denys or Denis), John Scotus of Eriugena, and St. Thomas Aquinas. In Judaism its main presence is in the work of Moses Maimonides of Cordoba. Other names with which it is also often associated are Philo of Alexandria, Plotinus (the neo-Platonist whose concept of “the One” was a great influence on the Pseudo-Dionysius), St. Gregory of Nyssa, Clement of Alexandria, Meister Eckhart, St. John of the Cross, Jacques Derrida and Georges Perec."
 
rc,

Thank you for the information. I’m looking forward now to watching the Sirk films. I am going to read more carefully your thoughts on negative theology when I have a bit more time. I do remember hearing about the idea of it from reading Peter Kreeft.

If you ever watch Mulholland Drive or Dogville and feel like sharing your experience of them, be sure and bring them up here at CA. I mention these two movies in particular because I believe they somehow complete and bring to a certain perfection the earlier works of these two directors. They also seem to work in tandem in a magical way. But I would be interested to hear what you think (or feel) about them.
 
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Pace:
How do we account for the films Mulholland Drive and Dogville, then?
I don’t understand what you are asking? These are just more surreal and anti-American movies in the same *genre *as ‘Easy Rider’; ‘Pink Flamingoes’; or movies made by Werner Fassbinder.

A form of entertainment for those whose tastes run dissimiliar to my own?
 
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RichSpidizzy:
I haven’t seen any negative remarks made about “The Passion of the Christ” either… Whether from fundamentalist or otherwise. Maccabees, where have Fundamentalists been bad mouthing the movie?
Here’s a rabid anti-Catholoc screed on the movie.

letgodbetrue.com/todaysworld/passion.htm

These folks are real confused. As you can see, according to them, there isn’t anything good about the movie. It’s Catholic, don’t you know.
 
Kevin Walker:
I don’t understand what you are asking? These are just more surreal and anti-American movies in the same *genre *as ‘Easy Rider’; ‘Pink Flamingoes’; or movies made by Werner Fassbinder.

A form of entertainment for those whose tastes run dissimiliar to my own?
Hello Kevin,

I have to disagree with you. To put it simply, I believe that Mulholland Drive and Dogville ,taken together, are the ‘incarnation’ of Jesus Christ, or even of the Father himself, into the world of cinema.

And if it is God who has manifested himself into the world of cimena in this way, then is it really possible that we can honestly say it is not to our taste? (I’m not saying that this is the position you are taking.)
 
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Pace:
Hello Kevin,

I have to disagree with you. To put it simply, I believe that Mulholland Drive and Dogville ,taken together, are the ‘incarnation’ of Jesus Christ, or even of the Father himself, into the world of cinema.

And if it is God who has manifested himself into the world of cimena in this way, then is it really possible that we can honestly say it is not to our taste? (I’m not saying that this is the position you are taking.)
Pace,

They’re only movies! Screen writers, special effects, stuntmen, re-takes, directors, actors, film, movie cameras, sets, bad acting, etc. - the world of make believe. Tawdry entertainment at best.

Mulholland Drive and Dogville are surreal and anti-American movies in the same *genre *as Eraserhead and Easy Rider. No movie should ever be taken that seriously.
 
Kevin Walker:
Pace,

They’re only movies! Screen writers, special effects, stuntmen, re-takes, directors, actors, film, movie cameras, sets, bad acting, etc. - the world of make believe. Tawdry entertainment at best.

Mulholland Drive and Dogville are surreal and anti-American movies in the same *genre *as Eraserhead and Easy Rider. No movie should ever be taken that seriously.
And the Bible’s only a book (or book of books). Where does *it’s * power come from?
 
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Pace:
And the Bible’s only a book (or book of books). Where does *it’s *power come from?
The power of the Bible comes from God! There is no power in any movie!

Movies are tawdry bits of entertainment at best, but entertainment only! Some claim movies as art, others a tool for recording history or for re-enacting history for educational purposes, movies can be used for documentary purposes; but all movies are a contrivance - a fake, an illusion like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat for the sheer entertainment value alone.

Movies have absolutely no ecclesiastical power whatsoever, none! I am a fantatic movie buff and have been hitting the movies since 1965 and none of the thousands of movies I have seen have any religious value or power at all! ZERO - zip, nada!

The most powerful and influential movie on my life was 2001: A Space Odyssey in 1968, its special effects were decades ahead of its time. Its the movie that caused me to study science & philosophy, but I knew it was only a stupid movie.

There is no analogy between the Bible or a movie. Only the Hindus believe movies are reality not Catholics.
 
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Pace:
And the Bible’s only a book (or book of books). Where does *it’s *power come from?
The power of the Bible comes from God! There is no power in any movie!

Movies are tawdry bits of entertainment at best, but entertainment only! Some claim movies as art, others a tool for recording history or for re-enacting history for educational purposes, movies can be used for documentary purposes; but all movies are a contrivance - a fake, an illusion like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat for the sheer entertainment value alone.

Movies have absolutely no ecclesiastical power whatsoever, none! I am a fantatic movie buff and have been hitting the movies since 1965 and none of the thousands of movies I have seen have any religious value or power at all! ZERO - zip, nada!

The most powerful and influential movie on my life was 2001: A Space Odyssey in 1968, its special effects were decades ahead of its time. Its the movie that caused me to study science & philosophy, but I knew it was only a stupid movie.

There is no analogy between the Bible or a movie. Only the Hindus believe movies are reality, not Catholics.
 
Kevin Walker:
The power of the Bible comes from God! There is no power in any movie!

Movies are tawdry bits of entertainment at best, but entertainment only! Some claim movies as art, others a tool for recording history or for re-enacting history for educational purposes, movies can be used for documentary purposes; but all movies are a contrivance - a fake, an illusion like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat for the sheer entertainment value alone.

Movies have absolutely no ecclesiastical power whatsoever, none! I am a fantatic movie buff and have been hitting the movies since 1965 and none of the thousands of movies I have seen have any religious value or power at all! ZERO - zip, nada!

The most powerful and influential movie on my life was 2001: A Space Odyssey in 1968, its special effects were decades ahead of its time. Its the movie that caused me to study science & philosophy, but I knew it was only a stupid movie.

There is no analogy between the Bible or a movie. Only the Hindus believe movies are reality not Catholics.
Movies are the only avenue we have left open for God to be able to get to the deepest part of our heart. Jesus said: Where your treasure is, there also is your heart. this is why I brought up in another thread the question of whether our faith lies more in cinema than in God.

I even wonder sometimes if movies don’t make a deeper connection with us, even than bread. This is why I brought up the idea, also in another thread, of the cinema being like the Eucharist.
 
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Pace:
Movies are the only avenue we have left open for God to be able to get to the deepest part of our heart. Jesus said: Where your treasure is, there also is your heart. this is why I brought up in another thread the question of whether our faith lies more in cinema than in God.

I even wonder sometimes if movies don’t make a deeper connection with us, even than bread. This is why I brought up the idea, also in another thread, of the cinema being like the Eucharist.
Hello Pace,

“Where your treasure is, there also is your heart” - The same thing you are crediting to the movies could also be said of reading a good novel, like was done before Thomas Edison invented the motion picture camera.

How did you ever connect the fake and phony world of motion pictures as a religious vehicle equivalent to the Bible? There is no logical concantanation at all between the two?

There are thousands of ways to entertain oneself other than the movies, such as playing Monopoly or Blackjack or hopskotch or bingo, etc… ad infititum, and does each one also allow God to get into the deepest part of our hearts? Why or why not?

The reality is that movies are merely for entertainment value and not a vehicle for the belief in God.
 
Kevin Walker:
The reality is that movies are merely for entertainment value and not a vehicle for the belief in God.
Do you really think that the reason that Mel Gibson made The Passion of the Christ was because he wanted to create a piece of entertainment? Is this film to be dismissed as nothing more than a lightweight piece of fluff to be enjoyed in the theater while eating candy and drinking sodas? It is obvious to me that Mel Gibson had the intention to craft a piece of art that would act as a vehicle to bring us closer to God, and “entertainment” was NOT his purpose.

A question that can be asked is this, which film of David Lynch brings one closer to God, Mulholland Drive, or The Straight Story? David Lynch did have the intent of creating entertainment with both films, but the dark spirit of Mulholland Drive leads not to God, but away from God, IMO.
 
Kevin Walker:
Hello Pace,

“Where your treasure is, there also is your heart” - The same thing you are crediting to the movies could also be said of reading a good novel, like was done before Thomas Edison invented the motion picture camera.

How did you ever connect the fake and phony world of motion pictures as a religious vehicle equivalent to the Bible? There is no logical concantanation at all between the two?

There are thousands of ways to entertain oneself other than the movies, such as playing Monopoly or Blackjack or hopskotch or bingo, etc… ad infititum, and does each one also allow God to get into the deepest part of our hearts? Why or why not?
Kevin,

The best answer I could give to these or any other possible questions is to recommend that you watch Mulholland Drive again. I’ve had many of the same doubts about Lynch’s work that you are having.

My point is that ‘the movies’ are the ultimate art form, in that they can truly be a place where we can invest “our heart”. They are something we can meet half way. So they can be in competition with God for our faith.

And what you wrote reminded me that human beings were for the most part “fake and phony” before (and after) Jesus became one of them. 🙂
 
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Matt16_18:
A question that can be asked is this, which film of David Lynch brings one closer to God, Mulholland Drive, or The Straight Story? David Lynch did have the intent of creating entertainment with both films, but the dark spirit of Mulholland Drive leads not to God, but away from God, IMO.
Matt16_18,

The Straight Story has in effect been held hostage by Disney. The world would be a different place now if ABC would have aired it, especially after 9/11/01. So can we blame the subsequent Lynch movie for containing collapsing spiritual cities?

The Lynch movies are really mirrors.
 
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Pace:
The Straight Story has in effect been held hostage by Disney. The world would be a different place now if ABC would have aired it, especially after 9/11/01. So can we blame the subsequent Lynch movie for containing collapsing spiritual cities?
???
The Lynch movies are really mirrors.
Mirrors reflecting what?
 
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