Apologist Dave Armstrong defends Ad Orientem posture

  • Thread starter Thread starter outremer
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Our Lord didn’t “face” the apostles.
That may be but I think this misses the point of a sacrifice altogether. The actual sacrifice, which is mentioned in the Roman Canon or EP1, and addressed in the EF as approaching the Holy of Holies, is hidden from the people.

The meal part is the other thing, but that involves a communion table.
 
These 2 viewpoints also shake out as:
  1. Priest leading the people (ad orientam) is viewed as emphasizing the sacrificial nature of the mass.
  2. Priest facing the people is views as emphasizing the** banqueting** nature of the Mass.
👍

And so what is the mass, fundamentally, a banquet or a sacrifice?

It is a SACRIFICE, THE Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross, continuing down through the ages, re-presented in an unbloody manner by the hands of the priest, who is an alter Christus. This is primarily why the priest is an alter Christus: because he is offering Jesus, as it were as if he were Jesus, who is, obviously, no longer on this earth, so he relies on his ordained ministers who act in persona Christi to re-present His Sacrifice to the Father, for the continual outpouring of the superabundant grace which flows from the Sacrifice of the Cross, for the sanctification and salvation of the world.

The mass is not a “banquet”. That’s 1960’s-70’s garbage.

The priest and the people - who are also priests, though unordained - offer Jesus together, along with their very lives, to the Father, facing the same direction in their offering, which is a sign of their unity. The priest is also at the “head” of the people, as the primary minister offering Jesus to the Father.

That’s the way I see it.

From the CCC:
1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
Christ, our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper “on the night when he was betrayed,” [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189 [from the Council of Trent]
[edited]

God bless, everyone

Pray the Rosary every day​
 
👍

And so what is the mass, fundamentally, a banquet or a sacrifice?

It is a SACRIFICE, THE Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross, continuing down through the ages, re-presented in an unbloody manner by the hands of the priest, who is an alter Christus.

The mass is not a “banquet”. That’s 1960’s-70’s garbage.

The priest and the people - who are also priests, though unordained - offer Jesus together, along with their very lives, to the Father, facing the same direction in their offering, which is a sign of their unity. The priest is also at the “head” of the people, as the primary minister offering Jesus to the Father.

That’s the way I see it.

From the CCC:
1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:Christ, our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper “on the night when he was betrayed,” [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189 [from the Council of Trent]
Well, now that we know what you think is garbage, let me quote from the Latin Mass Society of England and Wales: “So the Mass is both a sacred meal and a sacrifice, or a sacrifice and a sacred meal. [It began in the Upper room and ended on Calvary.] The liturgy of the [Traditional] Mass is redolent of the ceremonies of the Passover liturgy, which Jesus desired with great desire to celebrate for our salvation. “Amen, amen I say to you: unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life everlasting and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father has sent me, and as I live because of the Father, so he who eats me, he also shall live because of Me” (Jn 6:54-59).”

I would suggest you might want to pick up your Bible and read all of John 6.

And since you wish to quote the CCC: answering the question as to what the Sacrament is called: Section 1329: “The Lord’s Supper, because of its connection with the supper which the Lord took with his disciples on the eve of his Passion and because it anticipates the wedding feast of the Lamb in the heavenly Jerusalem.” Golly - Sounds like a Sacred Meal, also, as well as Sacrifice.

And 1382: The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord’s body and blood. But the celebration of the Eucharistic sacrifice is wholly directed toward the intimate union of the faithful with Christ through communion. To receive communion is to receive Christ himself who has offered himself for us."

Garbage indeed.

It is not one or the other; it is both.
 
:Looking at what has followed upon the massive changes to the Sacred Liturgy in the last 45 years indicates to me whether the changes were good or bad. I need not quote any statistics or give any examples - we all know. It’s the principle of “by their fruits you shall know them,” and the fruits are rotten to the core.

God bless, everyone

Pray the Rosary every day
It is good that you did not quote statistics, as you would have been playing the game of post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

Attacking the official Liturgy of the Church is a good way to get oneself banned.
 
Well, now that we know what you think is garbage, let me quote from the Latin Mass Society of England and Wales: “So the Mass is both a sacred meal and a sacrifice, or a sacrifice and a sacred meal. [It began in the Upper room and ended on Calvary.] The liturgy of the [Traditional] Mass is redolent of the ceremonies of the Passover liturgy, which Jesus desired with great desire to celebrate for our salvation. “Amen, amen I say to you: unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life everlasting and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father has sent me, and as I live because of the Father, so he who eats me, he also shall live because of Me” (Jn 6:54-59).”

I would suggest you might want to pick up your Bible and read all of John 6.

And since you wish to quote the CCC: answering the question as to what the Sacrament is called: Section 1329: “The Lord’s Supper, because of its connection with the supper which the Lord took with his disciples on the eve of his Passion and because it anticipates the wedding feast of the Lamb in the heavenly Jerusalem.” Golly - Sounds like a Sacred Meal, also, as well as Sacrifice.

And 1382: The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord’s body and blood. But the celebration of the Eucharistic sacrifice is wholly directed toward the intimate union of the faithful with Christ through communion. To receive communion is to receive Christ himself who has offered himself for us."

Garbage indeed.

It is not one or the other; it is both.
Yes, you are correct. I shouldn’t have said that. However, it is primarily a Sacrifice.

God bless
 
I should add: But what is 60’s-70’s garbage is believing that the mass is only or even primarily a “banquet meal”. That is not the Catholic Faith.
 
Our Lord didn’t “face” the apostles. The Passover supper was shared at a “horseshoe” shaped table with all the guests facing the same direction…
What is the support for that contention? Just curious.

Matt
 
It really doesn’t need defense. Even the GIRM assumes Mass will be offered Ad Orientem and tells the priest when to turn around. Anything other than Ad Orientem is the exception and not the norm, regardless of which you’re more likely to come across.
 
Cardinal Sarah, whom Pope Francis appointed Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, and thus the highest authority on Roman Rite liturgy (other than the Pope himself), has also lauded the Ad Orientem posture. See catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=25239
I have definitely seen it used in the OF. In fact both Popes Benedict and Francis have used A.O. (Benedict more than once and Francis at least once - at the tomb of Pope St. John Paul II).
Pope Francis has offered several Ad Orientem Masses in the Sistine Chapel. For his first Papal Mass in there a table was brought out and used as an altar, but every subsequent Mass offered there by him that I have seen has been Ad Orientem using the high altar.
 
Well, now that we know what you think is garbage, let me quote from the Latin Mass Society of England and Wales: “So the Mass is both a sacred meal and a sacrifice, or a sacrifice and a sacred meal. [It began in the Upper room and ended on Calvary.] The liturgy of the [Traditional] Mass is redolent of the ceremonies of the Passover liturgy, which Jesus desired with great desire to celebrate for our salvation. “Amen, amen I say to you: unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life everlasting and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father has sent me, and as I live because of the Father, so he who eats me, he also shall live because of Me” (Jn 6:54-59).”
You didn’t provide a website reference so I thought I would provide one. (It may be a clarification of your source, but I’m not sure.)

lms.org.uk/resources/articles-on-the-mass/the_mass__meal_or_sacrifice

It states here:
Many recent liturgists insist that the Mass is primarily a communal meal. The Traditional Rite makes it clear that while the Mass is indeed a sacred meal, it is pre-eminently a sacrifice. Why is it a sacred meal? Not because of the congregation celebrating itself but because of Our Lord’s actions begun in the Upper Room on Holy Thursday and completed on Calvary on Good Friday which fulfilled the Old Covenant. Raymond de Souza in this edited version of a tour de force lecture given at the Faith of Our Fathers conference in London in 2006 makes all clear.
 
I should add: But what is 60’s-70’s garbage is believing that the mass is only or even primarily a “banquet meal”. That is not the Catholic Faith.
I would agree with you on that, with the exception that since the 50’s, I have never met anyone who held that idea.

I have no doubt there are some out there, but I would disagree that they are even a noticeable minority, let alone a significant one. In other words, we can find some worthwhile battles to fight.
 
but I don’t know if that includes the preface.
Thanks.

I can’t give weight to the comment about “Many liturgists…” as it is one of those vague comments where there is no factual underpinning provided. I am sure that some have, given that we have theologians of all sorts of stripes; but I don’t even know what they consider to be a “liturgist” as that is going to take everyone out into the weeds.

I only got into the fray due to selective quoting and a comment that was somewhat overbroad. Other than that, I don’t have a dog in the fight.
 
I only got into the fray due to selective quoting and a comment that was somewhat overbroad.
Fair point, but one can probably question what exactly constitutes a meal, communal or otherwise, since communion is now routinely administered outside Mass. The thing required is for the priest to confect the bread and wine AND consume the sacrifice as did the OT priests mentioned in the Canon and EP1. But I suppose extending the priesthood to the laity brings about some misunderstood concepts concerning “both a Sacrifice and a Meal.” To be honest, I don’t quite understand them either.
 
The mass is in its essence the re-presentation of Jesus Christ to the Father of His once-for-all Sacrifice, through the hands of His sacred minister. Because of this Sacrifice, consequent to this Sacrifice, in consequence of this Sacrifice, we are then enabled to share in the Sacrifice, through the consumption of His Body and Blood. Am I correct?

Why is a priest able to say mass by himself? Who is he having the Sacred Meal with? The Good Lord, yes. But not with anybody on earth - no other members of the Body of Christ. That aspect is not essential.
 
I have no doubt there are some out there, but I would disagree that they are even a noticeable minority, let alone a significant one.
If only that were true. I wish it were. If it becomes so again, then the priest and the congregation, His priestly people, will offer Christ together facing in the same direction as previously, looking together to the east awaiting His return in glory. Then modernist hymnals will be tossed, and I won’t be forced to hear week after week hymns about us rather than about Him, the One we are receiving in Holy Communion.

I rather like this one:
Code:
 Down in adoration falling
 Lo, the sacred Host we hail
 Lo, o'er ancient forms departing
 Newer rites of grace prevail:
 Faith for all defects supplying,
When the feeble senses fail…

God’s Peace
 
T in consequence of this Sacrifice, we are then enabled to share in the Sacrifice, through the consumption of His Body and Blood. Am I correct?
But would we as laity be able to share without sacramentally receiving? I believe through the actions of the priest, which I’m not, this would be the case. But I’m no theologian on this.

There is this beautiful prayer in the EF which summarizes this I think (it’s translated different ways so I’ll give the translinear translation):

Deus, qui humanæ substantiæ dignitatem
God, Who of human substance dignity

mirabiliter condidisti,
wonderfully has created,

et mirabilius reformasti:
and more wonderfully reformed:

da nobis per hujus aquæ et vini mysterium,
give to us through this of water and wine mystery,

ejus divinitatis esse consortes
His divinity to be partakers

qui humanitatis nostræ fieri dignatus est particeps,
Who in humanity our to become has granted partaker,

Jesus Christus Filius tuus Dominus noster:
Jesus Christ Son Your Lord our:

Qui tecum vivit et regnat
Who with You lives and reigns

in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus:
in union with Spirit Holy God:

per omnia sæcula sæculorum. Amen.
for all ages of ages. Amen.
 
But would we as laity be able to share without sacramentally receiving? I believe through the actions of the priest, which I’m not, this would be the case. But I’m no theologian on this.
? I’m a bit confused. Yes, of course we share in the Sacrifice of Christ through the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Was that what you were asking?

Christ mercifully makes His Sacrifice present to us 2,000 years after the Paschal Mystery was completed through His sacred ministers, the priests, in Holy Communion.

I’m no theologian either, btw,
There is this beautiful prayer in the EF which summarizes this I think (it’s translated different ways so I’ll give the translinear translation):

Deus, qui humanæ substantiæ dignitatemus
God, Who of human substance dignity

mirabiliter condidisti,
wonderfully has created,

et mirabilius reformasti:
and more wonderfully reformed:

da nobis per hujus aquæ et vini mysterium,
give to us through this of water and wine mystery,

ejus divinitatis esse consortes
His divinity to be partakers

qui humanitatis nostræ fieri dignatus est particeps,
Who in humanity our to become has granted partaker,

Jesus Christus Filius tuus Dominus noster:
Jesus Christ Son Your Lord our:

Qui tecum vivit et regnat
Who with You lives and reigns

in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus:
in union with Spirit Holy God:

per omnia sæcula sæculorum. Amen.
for all ages of ages. Amen.
I love that prayer too! :crossrc:
 
The Priest should always face liturgical east because it reminds us of the coming of Our Lord who the Church has always taught would return from the east. Also it protects the Mass form becoming about the personality of the Priest and about the feelings of the laity.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top