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VociMike
Guest
Say what?
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Laurence_of_PA
Guest
And apparently “?” is a letter, too.
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pnewton
Guest
I would probably talk about it. The talk would be more along the lines of dialogue. In fact, I have done this on many occasions. I do not feel that a person suddenly snaps from invicibly ignorant to culpable. I say trust God, and trust if the person is truly a man of faith, that in God’s time, he will understand more fully our Faith. I believe this is the heart of evangelism.
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Laurence_of_PA
Guest
I’ll be a little clearer:
Even if everyone has a “God-feeling” inside them (from either evolution or He that put it there), it takes a person’s family, culture, and society to elaborate who or what that feeling is coming from.
You’re right though, the Ancient Romans weren’t ignorant of their many Gods!
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Laurence_of_PA
Guest
I’m sure he’d be feeling the same thing towards you, that *you *might grow in love and faith for [insert deity here].
As I said before with the Ferraris: If there really was a sale of a dozen Ferraris for fifty cents, the only people who* wouldn’t* go would be those who were ignorant of the truth of the sale.
Same thing with Catholicism and the surest way to heaven…
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ateista
Guest
Of course. Didn’t you know it? It is Zilla.
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thessalonian
Guest
“Our natural moral inclinations obviously tell us that killing is wrong, and maybe even that we should love one another. HOWEVER, it is NOT written on our hearts whether Peter is “The Rock” or Jesus went to America. This stuff is involved in the eternal nit-pricking that is Apologetics.”
You are correct. It is not written on our hearts that Peter is the Rock. But if one has violated the moral law as a non-Christian (and again we cannot know if they are truly ignorant or not) and he is not in the state of grace, how does he get in the state of grace? The Church teaches that he can be baptized. To do that he must believe and repent. Outside of that it would require perfect contrition, which he is likely incapable of if he does not know Christ. Ignorance has no bearing on that.
You are correct. It is not written on our hearts that Peter is the Rock. But if one has violated the moral law as a non-Christian (and again we cannot know if they are truly ignorant or not) and he is not in the state of grace, how does he get in the state of grace? The Church teaches that he can be baptized. To do that he must believe and repent. Outside of that it would require perfect contrition, which he is likely incapable of if he does not know Christ. Ignorance has no bearing on that.
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pnewton
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Of course. That is what dialogue is all about. Evangelism is about listening as much as it is talking. I have no reason to be afraid of truth and explore it with one of another faith. If I did, I wouldn’t have much faith, would I?
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ABostonCatholic
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Dante? Who’s Dante? I never said anything about someone named Dante.
I was thinking of quotes like this one, “For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality” (Rom. 2:6–11) But we are not saved by our works. So this “reward” must be something in Heaven. And for the sake of a lack of a fuller revelation, let us call a greater reward “higher” and a lesser reward “lower.”
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Mijoy2
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I’m hardly the one to attempt to answer to the question, “can apologetics be defended”? But I’ll give it my best shot.
Let’s go under the assumption there is a God, a Heaven, and that we will experience ultimate happiness there (we have to go under this assumption or there is no point in attempting an answer).
Try not to think of Heaven as simply a place where you will enjoy, such as the feeling of joy you may get from visiting Fenway Park and seeing the Red Sox play (sorry Yankee fans), or going to the beach, or skiing or whatever your worldly pleasure may be. Try to think of Heaven as something so much greater that to compare would be ridiculous.
There are pleasures we must mature into. The pleasures of sex is certainly one. Most preadolesants would be disgusted at the idea. Eating candy would sound like much more of a delight (I think Peter Kreeft or C.S.Lewis has used this example). My understanding of Heaven is that it is not necassarily a place we’d understand if we were to somehow experience it in our present state (or at least those of us who a long long way to go before sainthood). The way we mature into it is to follow Gods will. To be led there while growing and maturing along the way. If we were to remain “invincibly Ignorant” we’d also remain in our immature state. We’d still be settling for candy when we could be enjoy the marital embrace.
The way we mature is to follow Christ, the way we follow Christ is through His church, His Church, is the Catholic Church. 'God is Love" as our present Pope tells us. Heaven is pure love, something we can’t understand or yet appreciate.
Apologists, attempt to hasten the process by educating us, by bringing us to a more advanced state of maturity. Not, necassarily, to save us from Hell, but to prepare us for Heaven.
MBG
Let’s go under the assumption there is a God, a Heaven, and that we will experience ultimate happiness there (we have to go under this assumption or there is no point in attempting an answer).
Try not to think of Heaven as simply a place where you will enjoy, such as the feeling of joy you may get from visiting Fenway Park and seeing the Red Sox play (sorry Yankee fans), or going to the beach, or skiing or whatever your worldly pleasure may be. Try to think of Heaven as something so much greater that to compare would be ridiculous.
There are pleasures we must mature into. The pleasures of sex is certainly one. Most preadolesants would be disgusted at the idea. Eating candy would sound like much more of a delight (I think Peter Kreeft or C.S.Lewis has used this example). My understanding of Heaven is that it is not necassarily a place we’d understand if we were to somehow experience it in our present state (or at least those of us who a long long way to go before sainthood). The way we mature into it is to follow Gods will. To be led there while growing and maturing along the way. If we were to remain “invincibly Ignorant” we’d also remain in our immature state. We’d still be settling for candy when we could be enjoy the marital embrace.
The way we mature is to follow Christ, the way we follow Christ is through His church, His Church, is the Catholic Church. 'God is Love" as our present Pope tells us. Heaven is pure love, something we can’t understand or yet appreciate.
Apologists, attempt to hasten the process by educating us, by bringing us to a more advanced state of maturity. Not, necassarily, to save us from Hell, but to prepare us for Heaven.
MBG
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VociMike
Guest
I suppose the crucial question is, how much knowledge of and communion with God is enough? How much should a person be satisfied with? At what point is it reasonable to say “OK, I don’t desire to know anything else about God, or to be any closer to God”?I’ll be a little clearer:
Even if everyone has a “God-feeling” inside them (from either evolution or He that put it there), it takes a person’s family, culture, and society to elaborate who or what that feeling is coming from.
You’re right though, the Ancient Romans weren’t ignorant of their many Gods!
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Church_Militant
Guest
If you find it let me know. It will be easy to spot. It has a big picture of Jesus on it and says something like, “I built my Church. It’s Catholic. Listen to her.”
an hour or two on CAF a day…how many other people in the world can do that Yeah, me too. That’s why I’m a Catholic.
right where I am right now?
(I’m not making this up, either)Because he and I are friends, (and I have a similar relationship with a most excellent Orthodox Jew BTW) I would talk over religion with him and do so with a view to understanding why he believes what he believes and share the same from my life. I can do that with respect and consideration as well as humility. I’ve learned a great deal about what the Jews believe and their thinking about our on most holy faith. We do not agree, but we also do not let that defeat our friendship and discussions. I treasure his friendship and his insights. I actually use a different way of sharing my faith with him than I would with others. The key is actually our friendship, which I consider a gift from God and a special responsibility. (Matthew 25:31-46 and Luke 10:29-37)
Sharing one’s faith does not have to mean that we drive others away. If we do so in a Christ-like way that will not happen. I won’t pretend that it is always easy.
And you base this upon what? Look at what the New Testament says Lawrence.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth.19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. 29 They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them
ignorant of their many Gods!True…but it appears that it goes a lot deeper than that.
I don’t think that culture is what makes the faith active. It does help, but the Holy Spirit can accomplish it all with that. (consider Abraham’s story in Genesis.
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Laurence_of_PA
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Before anything else, I just thought I’d apologize for seemingly abandoning this thread. Like many people here, I hate it when rogues post bombastic little things for shock value, only to forget about them once all their claims have been blasted. I for one don’t want to be associated with such individuals, but since I haven’t had access to a computer for nearly a day now, I may have left such an impression unintentionally. I apologize.
Now moving on…
Another thing… Sort through the viewer profiles of all those forum members who you’d consider “strong Catholics” or “darn good Apologists”. Under hobbies, how many of those people list “theology”? Face it: the majority of us on CAF are the type who worry ourselves sick over the deep questions and deeper answers to Life, the Cosmos, and God. In my own experience, most people simply don’t spend as much time searching for “truth” as we do – they are content with their own answers which suit them however they’d like. Does that make them any less of persons?
I could probably name a dozen people my own age who’ve done more charitable work than I have ever done, since I’ve been too busy contemplating the essence of charity. For all I know, people find God more through selfless actions than they could ever find him in Summa Theologica.
I’ll be frank with you. In retrospect I don’t think I came to these forums to find God or help humanity, but because I was insecure. – Plain and simple.
Now moving on…
Is 24-hour God-searching really a viable option for most people? In my own observation, one doesn’t have to hold such “absolute truth” or even be near the Catholic concept of God for them to do good. If someone is feeding the poor, clothing the naked, or just plain raising their children with good values, what more does this person need to be God’s good graces?
Another thing… Sort through the viewer profiles of all those forum members who you’d consider “strong Catholics” or “darn good Apologists”. Under hobbies, how many of those people list “theology”? Face it: the majority of us on CAF are the type who worry ourselves sick over the deep questions and deeper answers to Life, the Cosmos, and God. In my own experience, most people simply don’t spend as much time searching for “truth” as we do – they are content with their own answers which suit them however they’d like. Does that make them any less of persons?
I could probably name a dozen people my own age who’ve done more charitable work than I have ever done, since I’ve been too busy contemplating the essence of charity. For all I know, people find God more through selfless actions than they could ever find him in Summa Theologica.
I’ll be frank with you. In retrospect I don’t think I came to these forums to find God or help humanity, but because I was insecure. – Plain and simple.
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Laurence_of_PA
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Answer this: Of all the selfless, virtuous, and charitable people in the wolrd, how many of them do you think will ever be Catholic in their lifetime?
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Teflon93
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The point of apologetics is to remind those who invest too much faith in their own reasoning ability that some things are beyond our ability to reason.
Fetishizing reason while ignoring faith, hope, and charity leads inevitably to heresy, schism, and Hell.
Fetishizing reason while ignoring faith, hope, and charity leads inevitably to heresy, schism, and Hell.
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luv_pis
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The missionary shrugged. “You are already living in a hell on earth: living in constant fear. What we offer you is the choice to get out of this hell.”
(Besides, a true missionary who knows even a bit of what he’s saying would never say what he said about God and ignorant men: see Matthew 25:31-46)
Anyways, on to the topic. Lawrence, I think your problem is not apologetics per se, but evangelization, or the preaching of the Good News of Jesus Christ to non-Christians, or even to non-members of the same denomination. Sorry for nitpicking, but I wanted to be clear about what we are talking about.
My answers to your quesion about the “point” of apologetics, and the “point” of evangelization in general, can be neatly summed up by the answers given by one of the earlier repliers to this thread, ABostonCatholic.
1) Christ commanded it.
Not only were all Christians commanded by Christ, through His original disciples, to be “fishers of men” by evangelizing, but we Catholics and Christians in general believe that even Christ until now commands us to evangelize by His commanding of circumstances. That is, people who needed evangelizing are, well, “fated” to be evangelized by the God of Circumstances, and it is the choice of the evangelizer if it will be him/her or others who will start to evangelize them.
I think, Lawrence, that God used your insecurity to steer you to these boards. Believe it or not, it is your choice.
Anyways, does that mean that there are people who are fated NOT to be evangelized? Judging by history and the present conditions, yes. Why would that be? On reflection, I think it is a) because they are not ready for it; that is, they would not believe it anyways because of being to worldly or too demonic, or b) they don’t need it…yet, because of graces God in His wisdom bestowed on them.
Which would answer your question about evangelizing your Turkish-Muslim friend. If I was put into your shoes, when I, as you, am within twenty feet of your friend, what I would do depends on the situation. Remember the adage on us Christians: we are “fishers of men.” Evangelizing is like fishing; more specifically, like angling. You cannot fish by trashing around the shallows. You cast you bait, and wait…move it a bit if you want, but you have to wait. Likewise, one of the worst ways you can evangelize is by over-enthusiastically proclaiming your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and start bashing Mahomet, Buddha, or whoever religious leader or whatever religion is within your mental grasp…especially if the person believes in that religion/religious leader you are bashing. The best way is to do it subtly, for example by an exchange of faiths like what Church Militant is doing; or just by being your usual Catholic self, letting your actions speak for themselves.
And yes, evangelizing is hard, it usually takes years to convert someone, if at all.
**2) Christianity, though ultimately concerned with the next life, is also concerned with this life, too, and Christianity brings people a fuller life, both here and here-after.
**And this is undoubtedly true. In fact, I found that Catholic life is a lot more saner than the life according to any other faith/system/belief/whatever that I have met and studied. Like, for example, your example Lawrence: masturbation, and ultimately other sexual sins. The spirit of the world’s reluctance, or even repudiation, of controlling masturbation by declaring it “normal” and even encouraging it has lead to the toleration of almost any other perversion by the world.
**3) An invincibly ignorant non-Christian will undoubtedly have a lower place in Heaven than a Christian who has striven for sanctity. **
Actually I don’t know much about the “lower place in Heaven” reserved for non-Christians as compared to Christians (could someone enlighten me on this?), but this I do know: “ignorantly invincible” non-Catholics most probably will suffer more in Purgatory as compared to Catholics of the same moral fiber, by the mere fact that they were not exposed to the graces of the Sacraments of the Church.
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Teflon93
Guest
Sometimes we misunderstand invincible ignorance and natural law.
We all hunger for God; He is written in our hearts and we yearn for Him. To the extent that we, through no fault of our own, do not realize that He wishes us to comprise His Church, and that this Church is the Catholic Church, we have not sinned against Him. However, it is quite likely that, relying only upon our own consciences and not having the full complement of sacraments available to us that Christ brought with his ministry, we fall into sinful practices. (We can see this most clearly when reading of Luther’s life immediately after his excommunication, as the withdrawal of the sacraments generated various lamentable effects upon the former monk. I daresay this phenomenon is not confined to “Reformers”.)
Were I a betting man, I would certainly not bet on the likelihood that there are many who are truly invincibly ignorant, nor many of these who live such sinless lives so as to persevere in the end. With God, of course, anything is possible, and I certainly hope as many get to Heaven as draw breath, but Christ spoke of the narrow gate and he spoke Truth without fail.
Better by far to be a bad Catholic than a good non-Catholic, in that even the worst Catholic has all the sacraments to keep him on the path whereas our brothers and sisters outside the Church have pridefully rejected many of these. The Catholic Church is a hospital for sinners; others are salons for self-proclaimed saints. I, a sinner, know where I need to be. If those who claim not to require the hospital are in fact not sick with sin, God will surely bless them, but those ravaged by it who claim to be just fine may not fare as well.
Apologetics, therefore, may be defined analogically as, “Explaining the proper care and maintenance of the soul to those afflicted with sin.”
We all hunger for God; He is written in our hearts and we yearn for Him. To the extent that we, through no fault of our own, do not realize that He wishes us to comprise His Church, and that this Church is the Catholic Church, we have not sinned against Him. However, it is quite likely that, relying only upon our own consciences and not having the full complement of sacraments available to us that Christ brought with his ministry, we fall into sinful practices. (We can see this most clearly when reading of Luther’s life immediately after his excommunication, as the withdrawal of the sacraments generated various lamentable effects upon the former monk. I daresay this phenomenon is not confined to “Reformers”.)
Were I a betting man, I would certainly not bet on the likelihood that there are many who are truly invincibly ignorant, nor many of these who live such sinless lives so as to persevere in the end. With God, of course, anything is possible, and I certainly hope as many get to Heaven as draw breath, but Christ spoke of the narrow gate and he spoke Truth without fail.
Better by far to be a bad Catholic than a good non-Catholic, in that even the worst Catholic has all the sacraments to keep him on the path whereas our brothers and sisters outside the Church have pridefully rejected many of these. The Catholic Church is a hospital for sinners; others are salons for self-proclaimed saints. I, a sinner, know where I need to be. If those who claim not to require the hospital are in fact not sick with sin, God will surely bless them, but those ravaged by it who claim to be just fine may not fare as well.
Apologetics, therefore, may be defined analogically as, “Explaining the proper care and maintenance of the soul to those afflicted with sin.”
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Church_Militant
Guest
That’s not your problem…or mine. One thing that you seem to have overlooked is that for the first time in history we probably have the capacity to reach every person in the world with the truth of the Gospel and that is a very important prophecy that must take place before Christ will return. Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come. We are part of the plan of salvation for the whole world.
A good point, but I think you have apologetics and evangelism confused Tef. Apologetics is one aspect of evangelism…They are not the same thing.
, "Explaining the proper care and maintenance of the soul to those afflicted with sin."John Martignoni offers a very good definition and some pointers on apologetics in Apologetics 101-01 |Apologetics 101-02 | Apologetics 101-03
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Janet_S
Guest
The Ferrari/Catholicism analogy is pretty good, but it doesn’t hit the mark 100%.
There may be a downside to having a Ferrari, but for the most part, it’s a pretty simple deal. You don’t have to give up much to accept a cheap Ferrari.
Accepting Catholicism is a different story, though. Don’t forget, when you accept the Gospel message of Christ, you must accept the Cross. There are certain things you have to give up, and not everyone is ready to do that.
Don’t get me wrong. When I discovered Catholicism, I found something much better than a cheap Ferrari, and for that I will be eternally grateful. But it did come with a cost.
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Teflon93
Guest
I agree that apologetics is one aspect of evangelism; my point (which was not clear) is that some overemphasize the place of logic within apologetics.
What is the logic of God appearing to Moses as a burning bush?
What is the logic of Man sinning, and God becoming Man so as to expiate Man’s sins?
And yet apologetics is largely concerned with the deposit of faith and what we know of Man and God as a result.
Apologetics is predominantly concerned with Truth, not logic. Truth is Truth even where we cannot fully comprehend it.
As my local radio talk show is wont to say, “Agreement is not required.”
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