Apologists converting

[Mikaele]

I love listening to apologists debate. But have there been any well known apologists that have converted to Catholicism or a protestant church?

 

[jpjd]

Scott Hahn and Marcus Grodi are two examples of Protestants who converted to Catholicism and are now well-known apologists.

 

[kepha1]

I would add Dave Armstrong to that list.

 

[WatchingMedia]

Tim Staples was Assembly of God.

 

[JRKH]

How about blessed, soon to be saint, Cardinal Henry Newman.

I think we could also say that St Paul fits that catagory.

Peace
James

 

[Cachonga]

Mikaele:

I love listening to apologists debate. But have there been any well known apologists that have converted to Catholicism or a protestant church?

I think what is being asked is “Have any apologist converted from one side to the other?” While the people named were converts, how many of them were apologists (that is, actively engaged in apologetics) for the other side before their conversion? I guess Saul of Tarsus (the apostle Paul) could be one, but look at his conversion story (free-will conversion? That would be another topic).

 

[JRKH]

I think what is being asked is “Have any apologist converted from one side to the other?” While the people named were converts, how many of them were apologists (that is, actively engaged in apologetics) for the other side before their conversion? I guess Saul of Tarsus (the apostle Paul) could be one, but look at his conversion story (free-will conversion? That would be another topic).

Well - I don’t think anyone could say that minsters and prominent churchmen are not “apologists”. Under that thnking, Newman and Hahn would qualify. Grodi (a minster) likely qualifies as one equiped to defend his faith. Same with Staples.

Peace
James

 

[Cachonga]

JRKH:

Well - I don’t think anyone could say that minsters and prominent churchmen are not “apologists”. Under that thnking, Newman and Hahn would qualify. Grodi (a minster) likely qualifies as one equiped to defend his faith. Same with Staples.

Since we are admonished to “Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you,” (1 Peter 3:15 RSV), wouldn’t that make all Christians apologists? I would ask which of these men you’ve listed were converted because of a debate with a Roman Catholic apologist? What was the debate topic? Who was the Roman Catholic apologist? Now, if this is not what the OP has in mind, then I withdraw the questions. However, if this is what the OP is looking for, then I would think these questions need to be addressed.

 

[JRKH]

Since we are admonished to “Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you,” (1 Peter 3:15 RSV), wouldn’t that make all Christians apologists? I would ask which of these men you’ve listed were converted because of a debate with a Roman Catholic apologist? What was the debate topic? Who was the Roman Catholic apologist? Now, if this is not what the OP has in mind, then I withdraw the questions. However, if this is what the OP is looking for, then I would think these questions need to be addressed.

Fair questions.

The OP does mention both debates and conversion but, as written, the OP does not ask if any of the persons were converted due to a debate.

Normally conversion is a long process. Few have the experience of St Paul. So I suspect that, while certain debates might have the effect of raising questions in the mind of an apologist it would be the research conducted AFTER the debate that would lead to the conversion itself.

My guess would be that the more educated one is, the longer and more difficult would be the conversion.
This seems to be backed up by the many interviews I have watched on Marcus Grodi’s program, “The Journey Home” on EWTN.

Peace
James

 

[Mikaele]

Most people that enter into debates, if they are proved wrong, will hold closer to pride and look for another ridiculous excuse. So what I am really asking is, are there any famous recent public apologists (who wrote tracts and engaged in debates,) that converted to ‘The other side.’

I would love to see James White convert to Catholicism. You would think after all these years of debating Catholics he would see the Truth.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Eh. I may have some insight into that. Debating the faith can be addicting. The downside of apologetics, is that if it’s not done with the actual good of the other person’s soul ALWAYS in the forefront, it can become more of an issue of pride. It becomes about constructing the better, more masterful argument, it becomes about your reason, and how many people side with your superior reasoning. Somewhere along the way, God can take a back seat.

A perfect example of this is I got told on another thread twice by two different protestants that I know my faith and the Bible, but I and people like me are the reason they have not converted. On the flipside of the coin, my wife has another person thinking of converting to Catholicism and goes to mass because of her. My wife has only a basic, RCIA understanding of the faith, but her example is glowing, to say the least. So I guess, for me, I can completely understand how debates aren’t necessarily about seeing the truth, but about making the other person wrong, and this is sheer pride and easily fallen into. For this reason, I think the important thing to do is balance out one’s apologetics studies with study of the Word for the sheer joy of it, and always make sure you are walking the walk as well. I can’t speak on James White, I don’t know him. I know that Robert Sungenis seems to beat him in most of his debates (before from what I’ve seen, he appeals the decision), and yet there is very little charity. Father Mitch Pacwa has a mountain of knowledge in that noggin of his, but as a debater, he leaves a lot to be desired. That being said, particularly in the debate about the Catholic priesthood, the entire audience, even James, were extremely respectful of Mitch. Food for thought. You can be right, and still not win a soul.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

I would love to see James White convert to Catholicism. You would think after all these years of debating Catholics he would see the Truth.
.

Eh. I may have some insight into that. Debating the faith can be addicting. The downside of apologetics, is that if it’s not done with the actual good of the other person’s soul ALWAYS in the forefront, it can become more of an issue of pride. It becomes about constructing the better, more masterful argument, it becomes about your reason, and how many people side with your superior reasoning. Somewhere along the way, God can take a back seat.

A perfect example of this is I got told on another thread twice by two different protestants that I know my faith and the Bible, but I and people like me are the reason they have not converted. On the flipside of the coin, my wife has another person thinking of converting to Catholicism and goes to mass because of her. My wife has only a basic, RCIA understanding of the faith, but her example is glowing, to say the least. So I guess, for me, I can completely understand how debates aren’t necessarily about seeing the truth, but about making the other person wrong, and this is sheer pride and easily fallen into. For this reason, I think the important thing to do is balance out one’s apologetics studies with study of the Word for the sheer joy of it, and always make sure you are walking the walk as well. I can’t speak on James White, I don’t know him. I know that Robert Sungenis seems to beat him in most of his debates (before from what I’ve seen, he appeals the decision), and yet there is very little charity. Father Mitch Pacwa has a mountain of knowledge in that noggin of his, but as a debater, he leaves a lot to be desired. That being said, particularly in the debate about the Catholic priesthood, the entire audience, even James, were extremely respectful of Mitch. Food for thought. You can be right, and still not win a soul.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Eh. I may have some insight into that. Debating the faith can be addicting. The downside of apologetics, is that if it’s not done with the actual good of the other person’s soul ALWAYS in the forefront, it can become more of an issue of pride. It becomes about constructing the better, more masterful argument, it becomes about your reason, and how many people side with your superior reasoning. Somewhere along the way, God can take a back seat.

A perfect example of this is I got told on another thread twice by two different protestants that I know my faith and the Bible, but I and people like me are the reason they have not converted. On the flipside of the coin, my wife has another person thinking of converting to Catholicism and goes to mass because of her. My wife has only a basic, RCIA understanding of the faith, but her example is glowing, to say the least. So I guess, for me, I can completely understand how debates aren’t necessarily about seeing the truth, but about making the other person wrong, and this is sheer pride and easily fallen into. For this reason, I think the important thing to do is balance out one’s apologetics studies with study of the Word for the sheer joy of it, and always make sure you are walking the walk as well. I can’t speak on James White, I don’t know him. I know that Robert Sungenis seems to beat him in most of his debates (before from what I’ve seen, he appeals the decision), and yet there is very little charity. Father Mitch Pacwa has a mountain of knowledge in that noggin of his, but as a debater, he leaves a lot to be desired. That being said, particularly in the debate about the Catholic priesthood, the entire audience, even James, were extremely respectful of Mitch. Food for thought. You can be right, and still not win a soul.

 

[daughterofgrace]

Jeff Cavins was raised Catholic, became a Protestant pastor, and reverted back to Catholicism. Would recommend his book, “I’m Not Being Fed!”. Definitely a worthwhile read for Catholics and Protestants.

 

[WatchingMedia]

Yes, all of us are required to spread the truth.
It is very important that we are accurate.

Therefore, theoretical answers, rather than those based upon facts are very dangerous.
Answers that are not fact, can lead others astray since we can confuse people who are merely visiting the site one or two times.

Therefore, use the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” first printed in the US in March of 2000.
This will give correct answers about the Catholic Faith.
Even well schooled Priests and Catholic Theologians refer to this Catechism.

For those interested in answering more techinical questions, you can get a copy of Canon Law from EWTN catalogue or other Catholic catalogue site.

 

[frindro]

I guess Saul of Tarsus (the apostle Paul) could be one, but look at his conversion story (free-will conversion? That would be another topic).

I don’t think there’s any reason to believe St. Paul’s free will was impeded. According to the Bible he certainly faced heavy influences, but not to the point that he couldn’t say “no.”

 

[manualman]

There seems to be an attempt to change the question from “Have their been conversions among apologists from one side to the other?” to “Have the arguments in a debate resulted in a person converting?”

To the latter question, I say no way. Nobody changes convictions based on a debate. The best case scenario for a debate is that a seed is planted. But seeds are planted every day, who can say which one the final plant of faith sprang from?

I love conversion stories and the best thing about them is the story of how God touched the soul of the converted. I spent 4 years in college among evangelicals and saw many catholics become protestants. But a funny pattern emerges after a while.

Catholics who become protestants were rarely very informed or faith filled catholics beforehand. Many grew up catholic and many were even very involved in thier parish (altar boys, lectors, choir, etc), but somehow never came to know God as Savior from sin in that time. Maybe they were obedient and tried to be good, but few saw life with Christ as a source of joy before they de-poped. Only when experiencing that in a protestant setting did they convert.

Protestant converts to catholicism, on the other hand, seem to routinely have been on-fire Spirit filled believers before their conversion. The Hahns, Grodi, Cavins, Staples and so on all fall into this category, IIRC.

This may sound like catholic gloating until you think about it a little. Sure, few Spirit filled catholics are ever seduced by protestantism. Big deal, we don’t really get credit for it if God has given the Church the sacraments that don’t exist in other christian communities. Why WOULD anybody leave that? Where the responsibility is OURS and we are failing miserably is in witnessing effectively to the people in our OWN pews! THEY are the ones leaving in droves for mega-church christianity without ever recognizing what they are leaving behind. Shame on us.

 

[Robbinson]

There seems to be an attempt to change the question from “Have their been conversions among apologists from one side to the other?” to “Have the arguments in a debate resulted in a person converting?”

To the latter question, I say no way. Nobody changes convictions based on a debate. The best case scenario for a debate is that a seed is planted. But seeds are planted every day, who can say which one the final plant of faith sprang from?

I love conversion stories and the best thing about them is the story of how God touched the soul of the converted. I spent 4 years in college among evangelicals and saw many catholics become protestants. But a funny pattern emerges after a while.

Catholics who become protestants were rarely very informed or faith filled catholics beforehand. Many grew up catholic and many were even very involved in thier parish (altar boys, lectors, choir, etc), but somehow never came to know God as Savior from sin in that time. Maybe they were obedient and tried to be good, but few saw life with Christ as a source of joy before they de-poped. Only when experiencing that in a protestant setting did they convert.

Protestant converts to catholicism, on the other hand, seem to routinely have been on-fire Spirit filled believers before their conversion. The Hahns, Grodi, Cavins, Staples and so on all fall into this category, IIRC.

This may sound like catholic gloating until you think about it a little. Sure, few Spirit filled catholics are ever seduced by protestantism. Big deal, we don’t really get credit for it if God has given the Church the sacraments that don’t exist in other christian communities. Why WOULD anybody leave that? Where the responsibility is OURS and we are failing miserably is in witnessing effectively to the people in our OWN pews! THEY are the ones leaving in droves for mega-church christianity without ever recognizing what they are leaving behind. Shame on us.

Amen - this is a beautiful and powerful post. I’m an evangelical “born again” convert to Catholicism, and I’m often asked, by my evangelical friends, why their pews are filled with former Catholics. I think you hit the nail on the head and its a very interesting observation.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[cranster]

Amen - this is a beautiful and powerful post. I’m an evangelical “born again” convert to Catholicism, and I’m often asked, by my evangelical friends, why their pews are filled with former Catholics. I think you hit the nail on the head and its a very interesting observation.

Blessings,

Brian

I allowed myself to be seduced by protestantism several decades ago, and I knew better. I didn’t know how to defend my faith, and ended up in a church that’s now the mega church in my city. I was only a part of it for a few months when I realized that something was desperately missing… The Sacraments… especially the Eucharist, and Reconciliation. I’ve never looked back since.

We need to pray that God gives us holy Priests that aren’t afraid to preach about conversion, sin, hell, salvation etc. and show us the way to conversion through their own conversion.

I thank God for the protestants that are coming home. I pray that you light the fire of faith for those in our pews whose attendance may be perfunctory at best. If you want the fellowship that you had in your protestant churches which is lacking in the Catholic Church then you must make it happen. Bring the fire!!!