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guanophore
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Can you please point to a source where these doctrines are taught by the Church? preferably in the Catechism, because that it the most current teaching document.
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guanophore
Guest
RCIA is open to anyone who wants to learn about the Catholic faith. Participation in the Rites is no required.
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guanophore
Guest
Why do you say that? It seems perfectly evident to me that the one is the reason the other is necessary!
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guanophore
Guest
This is really off topic, and would prbably be a great one for that new thread you were proposing. I think the catechism addresses this very well.
The Catholic Church, contrary to a belief that appears to be popular among American Catholics, is not “cafeteria” style. Either you embrace what the Church Teaches, or not. Many of us have struggled with the teachings. The appropriate response is to recognize that Jesus founded the Church, and that all that the Church believes and teaches reflects what He committted once and for all to the saints. Our understanding is often in need of development, but if we accept that He promised not to leave the Church orphaned, that He would come to her, and that He would send His spirit to lead the Church into all truth, then we can pray that we be conformed. Obedience is often most difficult when the intellect cannot grasp.
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Bubba_Switzler
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Apostolic Succession is the lineage of bishops, traced back to the original apostles.Why do you say that? It seems perfectly evident to me that the one is the reason the other is necessary!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Succession
Various things are meant by apostasy, but at the simplest, it is simply a negation of infallibility.
So the two are not inconsistent if the lineage of bishops does not insure against error.
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guanophore
Guest
Or at least accept that God will bring you through your mental reservations into faith. “Lord help my unbelief” is acceptable.
Do you not believe that God is capable of revealing Truth to His Church?
Perhaps with some more catechesis you will understand better. This isnot the only way to be forgiven. It is the normative means which God had provided. God is not limited to the sacraments. However, I am way off topic! Sorry OP!
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guanophore
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Protestants do believe this. They just believe that when Roman Catholics stopped obeying the gospel, the protection of God was removed, just as it was in ancient Israel. God always preserved a remnant of faithful inside the corrupted Roman Catholic Church, so that when the time was right, these faithful persons to the Gospel were able to bring Reform to the Church, and take the Church back to the biblical gospel that had been abandoned.
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guanophore
Guest
This is certainly true.
The disobedience of some, however, does not nullify the gift of God.
It is not right for us to make this determination, as only God knows the heart. However we can observe that many persons who were baptized Catholic do not practice and profess the faith of the Church, some prominent politicians among them. To the extent that they depart from the Teaching of the Apostles they are no longer “catholic”. Most of these people have excommunicated themselves already.
The Lord knows those who are His!
Well said. We are to believe in Him, and the One who sent Him, and do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly before HIm.
This is a great topic that needs it’s own thread. We are forgiven by God directly. We also have the benefit of our ears hearing “Your sins are forgiven”. When scripture says “confess your sins to one another that you may be healed” it is because the grace of healing flows through a humble confession.
I agree, there is no “point of Jesus” if you need another mediator, but this is not the case for confession. The priest acts in the person of Christ. Jesus is the forgiver. Have you ever imagined kneeling before the Lord and confessing to his human ears? We can come approach this experience in the sacrament. It is difficult to express the great cleansing and relief that comes to one who has not experienced it. It is a great gift, and truly beneficial for the development of humility. I think it is pride and shame that mostly gets in the way, and that is where the greatest healing takes place.
I can understand how it seems that way. The OT priesthood was a shadow of what was to come. Now the priest is taken up into His eternal priesthood. This is all off topic here, though.
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guanophore
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I do not understand this at all. Apostasy means to fall away from the faith. What does this have to do with the “negation of infallibility”? One can fall away from the faith in all kinds of areas besides this one.
It is not the “lineage of bishops” that prevents error, but Jesus, the Head of the Church, and the HS, who is the Soul of the Church. Infallibility is grounded in the divine elements of the Church, not the human.
Further, it is the teachings that are preserved, not necessarily the individual teacher.
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Bubba_Switzler
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Right. I was not explicit when I started this thread but implicitly I was contrasting the “Great Apostasy” by which Protestants (used to?) mean that the Catholic Church had fallen away from “true Christianity” in some major way. I should have been more precise in the OP about this but I did link there to the wikipedia entry on the “Great Apostasy”.
And what defines the Church? Can Protestants claim to be the Church? Mormons? The Catholic Church defines itself by Apostolic Succession.
Of course, see above distinction between run of the mill apostasy and the Great Apostasy.
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mark_a
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Actually the Church is one, holy, (lowercase “c” catholic, and apostolic.
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Randy_Carson
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You should track down the writings of Clement of Rome (30-100 AD), Ignatius of Antioch (30-107 AD), Polycarp of Smyrna (only the account of his martyrdom exists), Irenaeus of Lyons (130-200 AD), and Justin Martyr. These five are known as the Apostolic Fathers because of thei direct contact with or proximity to the Apostles themselves. The period of their writing was anything but dark!
This is a big “if”…should I refute it, or are you still waiting for non-Catholic efforts to prove it?
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Randy_Carson
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A long time ago, a famous man wrote:I will allow no man to take private confession away from me, and I would not give it up for all the treasures in the world, since I know what comfort and strength it has given me. No one knows what it can do for him except one who has struggled often and long with the devil. Yea, the devil would have slain me long ago, if the confession had not sustained me . . .
“Therefore, no man shall forbid the confession nor keep or draw any one away from it. And if any one is wrestling with his sins and wants to be rid of them and desires a sure word on the matter, let him go and confess to another in secret, and accept what he says to him as if God himself had spoken it through the mouth of this person. However, one who has a strong, firm faith that his sins are forgiven may let this confession go and confess to God alone. But how many have such a strong faith? Therefore, as I have said, I will not let this private confession be taken from me. But I will not have anybody forced to it, but left to each one’s free will.
“For our God, the God we have, is not so niggardly that he has left us with only one comfort or strengthening for our conscience, or only one absolution, but we have many absolutions in the gospel and we are richly showered with many absolutions. For instance, we have this in the gospel: “If you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you” [Matt. 6:14]. Another comfort we have in the Lord’s Prayer: “Forgive us our trespasses,” etc. [Matt. 6:12]. A third is our baptism, when I reason thus: See, my Lord, I have been baptized in thy name so that I may be assured of thy grace and mercy. Then we have private confession, when I go and receive a sure absolution as if God himself spoke it, so that I may be assured that my sins are forgiven. Finally, I take to myself the blessed sacrament, when I eat his body and drink his blood as a sign that I am rid of my sins and God has freed me from all my frailties; and in order to make me sure of this, he gives me his body to eat and his blood to drink, so that I shall not and cannot doubt that I have a gracious God.
“Thus you see that confession must not be despised, but that it is a comforting thing.” (Sermon of 16 March 1522; LW, Vol. 51, 97-98)
The man’s name? Martin Luther.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
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Bubba_Switzler
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Can you recommend a good book that covers the period 65-110AD?
We had a modest handful of actual Protestants post in this thread and mostly the dismiss the idea that Protestants (still) subscribe to the Great Apostasy theory. The prevailing opinion these days is in favor of including Catholicism within a nebulous Christian commonwealth (though, apparently, Catholics are still on their way to hell for believing in salvation by works).
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NDfan
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Guanophore are you telling me that these teachings are not held currently by the church??
Perhaps you haven’t read Vatican II or the writings of Leo XIII, Pius X, Pius XI, and Pius XII.
Actually let’s list all the current teachings the church has on Mary as mediatrix of all Graces:
- Leo XIII, Encyclical, Supremi Apostolatus officio. Sept 1, 1883. *** 16, 1883. 1113
- Leo XIII, Encyclical, Superiore anno, August 30, 1884. *** 17, 1884. 49.
- Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, *** 24, 1891, 196.
- Leo XIII, Encyclical, Iucunda semper, Sept 8, 1984. *** 27, 1894. 179.
- Leo XIII, Encyclical, Adiutricem populi, Sept 5, 1895, *** 28, 1895, 130.
- Leo XIII, Encyclical, Diuturni temporis spatium, Sept 5, 1898, *** 31, 1898, 146.
- Leo XIII, Encyclical, Diuturni temporis spatium, Sept 5, 1898, *** 31, 1898, 147.
- Leo XIII, Parta humano generi, Apostolic Letter, Sept 8, 1901, *** 34, 1901, 195.
- St. Pius X, Encyclical, Ad diem illum, Feb. 2, 1904, AAS 36, 1904. 453-54.
- St. Pius X, Litterae Apostolicae, August 27, 1910, AAS 2, 1910, 901.
- Benedict XV, Litterae Apostolicae, Inter Sodalicia, March 22, 1918, AAS 10, 1918, 182.
- Benedict XV, Encyclical, Fausto appetente die, June 29, 1921, AAS 13, 1921, 334.
- Pius XI, Apostolic Letter, Galliam, Ecclesiae filiam, March 2, 1922, AAS 14, 1922 186.
- Pius XI, Apostolic Letter, Exstat in civitate, Feb. 1, 1924, AAS 16 1924, 152.
- Pius XI, Apostolic Letter, Cognitum sane, Jan 14, 1926, AAS 18, 1926, 213.
- Pius XI, Encyclical, Ingravescentibus malis, Sept 29, 1937, AAS 29, 1927, 380.
- Pius XII, Encyclical, Mystici Corporis, June 29, 1943, AAS 35, 1943, 248
- Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima, Bendito seia, May 13, 1946, AAS 38, 19465, 266.
- John XXIII, Epistle to Cardinal Agaganian, Legate to Marian Congress in Saigon, Jan 31, 1959, AAS 51, 1959, 88.
- Vatican II, Lumen gentium ## 61-62.
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mark_a
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Brilliant!!!
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mesl4
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Or at least accept that God will bring you through your mental reservations into faith. “Lord help my unbelief” is acceptable.
I pray that God will reveal The Truth to me and eliminate doubts about Truths, and eliminate my beliefs in errors. I won’t go into confirmation as a “leap of faith” when there is a chance it would be a leap into hell. Please don’t take offense, I’m just stating my concerns. If it’s right, heaven, if it’s wrong, hell.
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RebeccaJ
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I recommend the “United States Catholic Catechism for Adults”. It is a really good resource. It teaches the Catechism by explaining the meaning and scriptural references as well. On the entry for Penance, the scriptural basis for this Rite is given as John 20:21-23:
From the book (Catechism for adults);
That night Jesus gave the Church the ministry of the forgiveness of sins through the Apostles (CCC #1461).By the Sacrament of Holy Orders, bishops and priests continue this ministry to forgive sin “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” In this Sacrament, the priest acts in the person of Christ, the Head of the Church, to reconcile the sinner to both God and the Church. “When he celebrates the Sacrament of Penance, the priest is fulfilling the ministry of the Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep…The priest is the sing and instrument of God’s merciful love for the sinner” (CCC #1465)
I don’t know if you have studied “in persona Christi”, where, the bishop or priest acts in the person of Christ. Not only with the Sacrament of Penance, but also at Mass, during the liturgy of the Eucharist.
The Sacrament of Penance is a sacrament for healing. It is explained in the same section as the anointing the sick. These are gifts, which Christ gave to the Church, for our benefit.
To your question about Church. The teachings of “Church” as found in Catholicism, I have not found anywhere else. It has a mystical aspect to it. Jesus established His Church, and so it is His, which makes it a part of Him. By virtue of our baptism, we are made One with Christ, which makes us one with His Church.
The Sacrament of Holy Orders is the method by which the the authority to act in Christ’s place has been passed down, from the Apostles, to every bishop and priest today. Like all Sacraments, this is a gift of Christ’s, to His Church.
When a priest is hearing confession, and giving absolution, he is acting in the person of Christ. This authority was given to the Apostles, as seen in the scripture passage I quoted above. It is not the priest who is forgiving you, it is Jesus Christ. What the priest says is this:
If you parse it out, and tie it to the scripture above, you have “sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sin” (verse 22) “give you pardon and peace” (verse 21 “peace be with you” and verse 23 “who sins you forgive are forgiven them”) "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (verse 21 “as the Father has sent me, so I send you”).
Hope this helps,
Rebecca
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mercygate
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But we DO question it. Many of us who have questioned the Magisterium have found it to be more consistent with Scripture, better thought-out, more carefully elucidated than anything else in the game.
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mercygate
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What I see in this question is a habit of mind that poses an EITHER it’s Jesus OR it’s the Church dichotomy. Catholics and the Orthodox see the Church as THE Body of Christ: Body and Bride are One. The means of Christ’s mediation is in His Body. He, Himself, gave the Holy Spirit to the Eleven for the forgiveness of sins.
“Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’”
When my Confessor places his hands on my head and pronounces the words of absolution, I receive forgiveness from Christ Himself . . . reaching all the way back through time from hand to hand, heart to heart, to that locked room, where Christ breathed on the Apostles, as he continues to breathe upon them today.
What’s so great about not being forgiven by God directly? Nobody but God forgives sins. He does not leave the room. But He gave us one another as a sign of Communion. I find that most people who object to Confession, if pressed, are scared to death to speak their sins out loud in the presence of another sinner – perhaps a sinner worse than themselves.
Yet many non-Catholics, recognizing the scriptural mandate to “confess to one another,” have adopted their own person-to-person form of confession they call “accountability partners.” Fellowship in the Body is how Christ mediates today – how He applies the Blood of Sacrifice.
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