Apostasy

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FanChan said:
First of all, these things happened quite a while ago. While that in and of itself is a weak defense, it should still be kept in the back of your mind. Things were different then. The Church today would never sanction execution or the building up of armies in order to stamp out non-believers.

Second, Islam isn’t just about executing apostates and heretics. The Church executed people who were actively opposing the faith and creating civic unrest. Islam calls for the execution of anyone who disagrees, any and all infidels.

Third, try to remember that some of the things that happened regarding the Crusades were not so much ordered by the Church as they were ordered by a certain person or people. The Church, in its foundation, does not require going to war. There is no Catholic equivelant to Jihad in Church doctrine. Whereas Jihad is part of the Islamic faith. It’s not just a leader or two saying they should do this, it’s their faith requiring it.

Hopefully that gives you something to think about.
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Well, it may be the past, but if the Church has the political clout what is to stop them from going the imperial route again? Also, you were correct…it is a WEAK defense.

As regards your second point, you are wrong. The situation is much more nuanced in Islamic law. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
This link will give you an introduction. You shouldn’t speak about something if you don’t know.

Finally, Christianity and Islamic hold justice as a key moral principle. I will agree that the church-state tie is much stronger in Islam. However, the Just War concept articulated by St. Thomas is quite similar to military Jihad in Islam. If an army attacked a wholly Christian nature, can they fight back? Of course, that would be just war. The same is true in Islam. There is some debate amongst Islamic scholars as to whether there is such a thing as offensive Jihad in Islam. It really comes down to how the proof texts are understood. In actuality, it is basically a semantic argument. The bottom line is that a preemptive strike is permitted in Islam. I could be wrong, but I believe that Just War would allow the same. If you are suggesting that people were (and are) forced to convert to Islam, you could not be more wrong. By the way, have you ever heard of Pope Innocent III and his crusade against the Carthars? You might want to look it up.

I apologize for destroying your “holier than thou” Catholic edifice. 😉
 
eichenb2 said:
Well, it may be the past, but if the Church has the political clout what is to stop them from going the imperial route again? Also, you were correct…it is a WEAK defense.
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The Church hardly has any political standing these days. The Vatican is not the superpower it once was, nor the one some people would make it seem to be. When more than half of Catholics don’t care what they have to say, what kind of power could they really have? And that was rude. I admitted it was a weak defense and only wanted to bring up the simple point that the Church would no longer do such a thing, there was no need to get snooty about it.
eichenb2 said:
As regards your second point, you are wrong. The situation is much more nuanced in Islamic law. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
This link will give you an introduction. You shouldn’t speak about something if you don’t know.
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It’s also rude to suggest I don’t know what I’m talking about. I suppose the countless scholars that talk about the militaristic foundation of Islam don’t know what they’re talking about, either, right? Of course there are going to be sources out there that say Islam’s great. There may even be a vast majority of Muslims that don’t think Islam’s about taking out the infidels. But hey, majority of American Catholics think contraception’s great, too.
eichenb2 said:
Finally, Christianity and Islamic hold justice as a key moral principle. I will agree that the church-state tie is much stronger in Islam. However, the Just War concept articulated by St. Thomas is quite similar to military Jihad in Islam. If an army attacked a wholly Christian nature, can they fight back? Of course, that would be just war. The same is true in Islam. There is some debate amongst Islamic scholars as to whether there is such a thing as offensive Jihad in Islam. It really comes down to how the proof texts are understood. In actuality, it is basically a semantic argument. The bottom line is that a preemptive strike is permitted in Islam. I could be wrong, but I believe that Just War would allow the same. If you are suggesting that people were (and are) forced to convert to Islam, you could not be more wrong. By the way, have you ever heard of Pope Innocent III and his crusade against the Carthars? You might want to look it up.
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Again, I see you mention St. Thomas and Pope Innocent, but not Church Doctrine. I’ll repeat that the Church is not the individuals. Was St. Thomas pope, and did he speak ex cathedra about Just War? Same goes for that crusade. Some US Presidents were pretty awful, but does that mean that our form of government is evil?
eichenb2 said:
I apologize for destroying your “holier than thou” Catholic edifice. 😉
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You’re an awfully rude person, aren’t you? Is that terribly necessary?
 
eichenb2 said:
Confessions drawn out by torture…:hmmm: I wonder how truthful they were? So, it appears that the Church has, in fact, authorized the use torture and execution (by the state, of course) for heresy and apostasy. Also, Popes have had armies and announced crusades to eradicate the same. What is the problem with Islam, then???
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Well, first, Catholicism did not, for the first thousand years of its existence, do or sanction the things we are talking about: judicial torture or warfare. Islam cannot say the same.

Second, the church has not sanctioned or condoned torture or warfare for quite a while, in fact it has done the opposie.

Third, unlike Islam and many other reilgions, the Catholicism is a church: it has an authoritative hierarchy that explicitly spells out what it does and does not endorse. Hence, once the ecclesiastical authority condemns judicial torture, all Catholics are bound by that teaching. In Islam, such religious authority is rarely excercised by one person and thus no one policy can bind all Muslims. Some Muslims I am sure condemn violence, others embrace it and there is no binding declaration.

If you are suggesting that Catholicism and Islam have both condoned warfare and torture, thats fine I guess (if overly simplistic), but your argument that either violnce is an essentialized feature of either religion or that the encounter with violence has the exact same history, experience and outcome is quite wrong.

In the end, I realize you are not asking a question or trying to enter into meaningful dialogue, but simply making a hard headed point based on gross over generalization and simplification. So, could you clarify what your point is?

That Catholicism cannot or should not now condemn violence and torture because of its past?

That Islam and Catholicism are the same because each has, in is times embraced similar methods of preserving orthodoxy?
 
FanChan said:
The Church hardly has any political standing these days. The Vatican is not the superpower it once was, nor the one some people would make it seem to be. When more than half of Catholics don’t care what they have to say, what kind of power could they really have? And that was rude. I admitted it was a weak defense and only wanted to bring up the simple point that the Church would no longer do such a thing, there was no need to get snooty about it.

It’s also rude to suggest I don’t know what I’m talking about. I suppose the countless scholars that talk about the militaristic foundation of Islam don’t know what they’re talking about, either, right? Of course there are going to be sources out there that say Islam’s great. There may even be a vast majority of Muslims that don’t think Islam’s about taking out the infidels. But hey, majority of American Catholics think contraception’s great, too.

Again, I see you mention St. Thomas and Pope Innocent, but not Church Doctrine. I’ll repeat that the Church is not the individuals. Was St. Thomas pope, and did he speak ex cathedra about Just War? Same goes for that crusade. Some US Presidents were pretty awful, but does that mean that our form of government is evil?

You’re an awfully rude person, aren’t you? Is that terribly necessary?
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  1. It was not rude, it was statement of fact.
  2. You are correct. Religion is dying out in the west. That is why Islam is becoming dominant. Call it moral darwinism.
  3. As regards apostasy, don’t twist my words! I stated that Islamic SCHOLARS have written extensively about these “militaristic foundation of Islam”. This is much more nuanced that you suggested. The majority view now is that the execution of an apostate is only carried out if they try to attack Islam or Muslim. If they were to convert to Buddhism, for example, and quietly practice their new faith, there is no punishment. Purely within the confines of Sharia, there is much debate about practicing Islam in the modern world. You should really go live in Damascus for 6 months and see the diversity of opinion and practice that is tolerated in Islam. You are looking at Islam through tinted glasses. There have never been Islamic Inquisitions!
  4. Would the Carthars or the 3000+ that were killed by the Spanish Inquisition, or the millions of native Americans that were killed by the Portuguese care whether it was “official Church doctrine”. I am going to guess NO. This may be a nice rhetorical device for you. It may appease your conscience. However, it does not take away from the fact that Roman Catholicism and Roman Catholics were responsible for some pretty awful stuff. By the way, Muslims do the same things to justify some disturbing things in Islamic history and doctrine.
 
FanChan said:
The Church hardly has any political standing these days. The Vatican is not the superpower it once was, nor the one some people would make it seem to be. When more than half of Catholics don’t care what they have to say, what kind of power could they really have? And that was rude. I admitted it was a weak defense and only wanted to bring up the simple point that the Church would no longer do such a thing, there was no need to get snooty about it.

It’s also rude to suggest I don’t know what I’m talking about. I suppose the countless scholars that talk about the militaristic foundation of Islam don’t know what they’re talking about, either, right? Of course there are going to be sources out there that say Islam’s great. There may even be a vast majority of Muslims that don’t think Islam’s about taking out the infidels. But hey, majority of American Catholics think contraception’s great, too.

Again, I see you mention St. Thomas and Pope Innocent, but not Church Doctrine. I’ll repeat that the Church is not the individuals. Was St. Thomas pope, and did he speak ex cathedra about Just War? Same goes for that crusade. Some US Presidents were pretty awful, but does that mean that our form of government is evil?

You’re an awfully rude person, aren’t you? Is that terribly necessary?
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Sometimes, obstinance and ignorance needs to be met with directness. You, like many Christians, compartmentalize and ignore disturbing aspects of Christian history and doctrine in order to bash Islam. I am tired of it. Both you and most Muslims need to WAKE UP. Specifically on the Islam of Apostasy, like of it another way. Where do you think you would have been safer in 1600, if you changed from Islam to Christianity or vice versa? Several historians that I have read (most not Muslim) think that you would have been safer in Cairo than in Paris. It is impossible to really see the Islamic world today clearly. What you see if the result of 300 years of colonialism. The education, political, and religious infrastructure was demolished and people are still trying to recover. Read about the French occupation of Algeria! Also, check out a book by David Fromkin called “A Peace to end all Peace…”. Things are not as simple as you would like. :banghead:
 
I don’t know about for apostasy but Saint Joan of Arc was burned at on a stake for the trumped charge of heresy…
 
ebacherk said:
I don’t know about for apostasy but Saint Joan of Arc was burned at on a stake for the trumped charge of heresy…
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Trust me. A Catholic Apologist will rationalize that away. By the way, she wasn’t the only one. They will say that this is a regrettable, isolated instance of injustice and that the Church would not do such a thing now. This is like a Wife-Beating husband who stands, hand-cuffed and behind bars, and promises (with tears) to his wife that he will never hit her again; this, afters years of abuse.

It is really ironic then when there is talk of a stoning for adultery in Nigeria, Christians will ignore the details and the possibility that Muslims also think this instance is injustice, and simply indict Islam as backward and archaic. Islamic law is extremely complicated! My suggestion is to read a book about it. “Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence” or “Shariah Law: an Introduction” by Mohammad Hashim Kamali.
 
eichenb2 said:
Trust me. A Catholic Apologist will rationalize that away. By the way, she wasn’t the only one. They will say that this is a regrettable, isolated instance of injustice and that the Church would not do such a thing now. This is like a Wife-Beating husband who stands, hand-cuffed and behind bars, and promises (with tears) to his wife that he will never hit her again; this, afters years of abuse.
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I don’t the Church tries to rationalize Joan away, considering that she is, well, canonized. No sane Catholic will argue that the Church hasn’t done bad things, or that there haven’t been bad popes. What we will tell you, though, is two things:
  1. Church teaching and doctrine on faith and morals has never been incorrect. There may have been a disconnect between word and action, but the teaching was never wrong.
  2. Actions of Church-members, even popes and bishops, in the past, do not invalidate the Church of the present, or the teachings of the Church.
 
Lujack said:
I don’t the Church tries to rationalize Joan away, considering that she is, well, canonized. No sane Catholic will argue that the Church hasn’t done bad things, or that there haven’t been bad popes. What we will tell you, though, is two things:
  1. Church teaching and doctrine on faith and morals has never been incorrect. There may have been a disconnect between word and action, but the teaching was never wrong.
  2. Actions of Church-members, even popes and bishops, in the past, do not invalidate the Church of the present, or the teachings of the Church.
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  1. Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy is constantly evolving or devolving, depending on your perspective, in Catholicism. To say the “teaching was never wrong” is like saying that the sea level is always correct!
  2. It not say that it was invalidated. My whole point is that there is a double standard used on the CAForum when discussing Islam, which is presented as an infantile set of beliefs professed by a bunch of lunatics. There is never any delving into the scholarly discussions and dialog that is going on within Islam.
 
eichenb2 said:
  1. It not say that it was invalidated. My whole point is that there is a double standard used on the CAForum when discussing Islam, which is presented as an infantile set of beliefs professed by a bunch of lunatics. There is never any delving into the scholarly discussions and dialog that is going on within Islam.
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You are 100% correct on this. The Non-Catholic Forum’s discussions on Islam have reached the point that Islam cannot even begin to be discussed because of how rapidly the discussion is termed into a bash-Islam fest.
 
Muslims don’t want debate or enter discussion, they think they are going to tell you some lies from the quoran and you’ll fall belly up saying how could I have been so stupid?? and when you don’t (like they have) that foolish pride most of them bear like some kind of badge swells in them, they change the subject, criticize some country, or it inhabitants, and then tell you you have insulted them… Life without The Christ does that to people, they have no checks on the deadly sins, pride talks for them, anger ( in their eyes) makes them strong, and when you don’t take part in the “debate”(argument) they accuse you not wanting to debate or “compare cultures”. Life is tough for them, their perceived “enemies” are more numerous, wealthier,and more open and straight forward in accepting and discussing with others contrasting beliefs. They are not able or willing to do this most of the time.
 
Allan_M said:
Muslims don’t want debate or enter discussion, they think they are going to tell you some lies from the quoran and you’ll fall belly up saying how could I have been so stupid?? and when you don’t (like they have) that foolish pride most of them bear like some kind of badge swells in them, they change the subject, criticize some country, or it inhabitants, and then tell you you have insulted them… Life without The Christ does that to people, they have no checks on the deadly sins, pride talks for them, anger ( in their eyes) makes them strong, and when you don’t take part in the “debate”(argument) they accuse you not wanting to debate or “compare cultures”. Life is tough for them, their perceived “enemies” are more numerous, wealthier,and more open and straight forward in accepting and discussing with others contrasting beliefs. They are not able or willing to do this most of the time.
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“You are 100% correct on this. The Non-Catholic Forum’s discussions on Islam have reached the point that Islam cannot even begin to be discussed because of how rapidly the discussion is termed into a bash-Islam fest.”

How prophetic!
 
FanChan said:
Tee-hee. My friends dressed up as these guys and did a skit at a convention we all went to. Totally unexpected!
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You were supposed to read the link in my previous post before watching the video.
 
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