Apostasy

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Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Luk 18:8 … But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

If the gates of hell shall not prevail against Christ’s Church (the Catholic Church), then how can the Church go into such apostasy that Jesus wonders if he will find faith when He returns. Seems like the gates of hell would have prevailed upon it for such an event as apostasy to take place. (??)
 
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Luk 18:8 … But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

If the gates of hell shall not prevail against Christ’s Church (the Catholic Church), then how can the Church go into such apostasy that Jesus wonders if he will find faith when He returns. Seems like the gates of hell would have prevailed upon it for such an event as apostasy to take place. (??)
When Jesus refers to the gates of hell, He is referring to the doctrines of the Church which He handed to Her through His Apostles and their successors, the bishops. IF the Church ever “changed” any of these doctrines, then, indeed, the gates of hell would prevail over the Church, and Jesus would have been proven a liar, and we would all be wasting our time. However, even if no one on earth believed in the doctrines of the Catholic Church when Jesus returned, the doctrines would still be in tact. Each individual is here on earth to be tested to see whether he will be faithful to Jesus. The Church is His instrument of salvation and education in His truths. We each either choose to follow His truths, or we choose to follow the world. In the end, when the smoke of battle in this world clears away, you and I, and everyone else, will either be in heaven or hell. Period.

Also, I suspect that your view of “The Church” may be too narrow. It does NOT consist of only the institutional Church on earth in our day and time. It consists of all those members on earth, in Purgatory, and in Heaven!

The terms we use for those three groups are as follows: The Church Militant, The Church Suffering, and the Church Triumphant (or Church Glorified).
 
I think Scooby gave one good interpretation. Another is that Jesus is speaking rhetorically here and doesn’t intend to mean that there will be absolutely no faith on earth. However, it seems to me that in the end times faith will be shaken, but at the moment when it seems that the Church is about to be overcome, He will come and achieve his ultimate victory.
 
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Luk 18:8 … But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

If the gates of hell shall not prevail against Christ’s Church (the Catholic Church), then how can the Church go into such apostasy that Jesus wonders if he will find faith when He returns. Seems like the gates of hell would have prevailed upon it for such an event as apostasy to take place. (??)
Hi.

There are two issues here you ask of. Both are a matter of misinterpretation but neither are related.

First, I feel that you are taking the verse from Luke out of context by totally separating it from the complete parable from which they came. Here is the complete parable that Christ Himself told a gathering of disciples in a series of parables continued from Luke 17. The complete parable you noted of Luke 18, verses 1 through 8, go like this:
And he spoke also a parable to them, that we ought always to pray and not to faint, saying: There was a judge in a certain city, who feared not God nor regarded man. And there was a certain widow in that city; and she came to him, saying: Avenge me of my adversary. And he would not for a long time. But afterwards he said within himself: Although I fear not God nor regard man, yet because this widow is troublesome to me, I will avenge her, lest continually coming she weary me. And the Lord said: Hear what the unjust judge says. And will not God revenge his elect who cry to him day and night? And will he have patience in their regard? I say to you that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he comes, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?
In this parable, Christ is relating a story where a lazy, unjust judge, who couldn’t care a wit about what God or other men thought, relented to a widow who persisted in calling the judge to aid her, if only to get her out of his presence.

Christ’s concluding question that seems to be to Himself is really a question* to his flock*. Would He see such persistence in his followers? Such faith as illustrated by the widow, through continual appeal?

For, as us to bug him, justly and passionately, for what is needed**wants **. I’ll let this article aid you further on this rather than repeat what is in it.

The second point involves Matthew 16:18 that, you suggested, infers that Christ doubts Himself. This doesn’t follow logically.

To “prevail” means to predominate, to be greater in strength, to triumph. Note that Christ used “the **gates **of Hell” here. What Christ means here is not that hell will overwhelm us on Earth, but that His Church will attack the gates themselves as a mighty force and overwhelm it–the gates of Hell will not withstand the might of Christ’s ministry.

The question you posed, as such, aren’t related to the two verses you noted. I hope that helps a bit.
 
Catena Aurea:
After having taught us that we must in the last days resort to prayer because of the dangers that are coming, our Lord adds, Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth?

AUG. Our Lord speaks this of perfect faith, which is seldom found on earth. See how full the Church of God is; were there no faith, who would enter it? Were there perfect faith, who would not move mountains?

BEDE; When the Almighty Creator shall appear in the form of the Son of man, so scarce will the elect be, that not so much the cries of the faithful as the torpor of the others will hasten the world’s fall. Our Lord speaks then as it were doubtfully, not that He really is in doubt, but to reprove us; just as we sometimes, in a matter of certainty, might use the words of doubt, as, for instance, in chiding a servant, “Remember, am I not your master?”

AUG. Our Lord adds this to show, that when faith fails, prayer dies. In order to pray then, we must have faith, and that our faith fail not, we must pray. Faith pours forth prayer, and the pouring forth of the heart in prayer gives steadfastness to faith.
 
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Luk 18:8 … But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

If the gates of hell shall not prevail against Christ’s Church (the Catholic Church), then how can the Church go into such apostasy that Jesus wonders if he will find faith when He returns. Seems like the gates of hell would have prevailed upon it for such an event as apostasy to take place. (??)
When Jesus died on the Cross it seemed that He had been deserted by almost everyone . Everyone’s faith was severely tested. But at the foot of the Cross was his mother Mary, John and Magdalene. Purity, Priesthood and Penitence . The Bible speaks of Mary 'standing at the foot of the cross ’ - giving witness to her faith .
At the final persecution of the Church the Church will go through some great trial - it’s crucifixion and those who remain standing will be those who 'keep the faith ’
Happily, the Church, like her Master will have its Day of Resurrection .
 
[2 Thessalonians]
{2:1} But we ask you, brothers, concerning the advent of our Lord Jesus Christ and of our gathering to him,
{2:2} that you not be readily disturbed or terrified in your minds, by any spirit, or word, or epistle, supposedly sent from us, claiming that the day of the Lord is close by.
{2:3} Let no one deceive you in any way. For this cannot be, unless the apostasy will have arrived first, and the man of sin will have been revealed, the son of perdition,
{2:4} who is an adversary to, and who is lifted up above, all that is called God or that is worshipped, so much so that he sits in the temple of God, presenting himself as if he were God.
{2:5} Do you not recall that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?

[Matthew]
{16:18} And I say to you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

The two passages above are not in conflict. The one true Church continues during the entire tribulation, despite severe persecutions and afflictions. The great apostasy is an event wherein many of the member of the Church leave the Faith; apostasy is essentially an abandonment of the Christian Faith. But not every one commits apostasy. Even if a large number leave the Faith, a substantial number of the members of the Church will remain faithful. The apostasy committed by many members does not cause the Church to fail.

There was a foreshadowing of the great apostasy in the OT. After the death of Solomon, the kingdom was divided, with most of the tribes following a leader who was not legitimate, and only Judah and Benjamin remained faithful.
 
This is my view of part of the message the Messiah is trying to give in Matthew 16:18; this post is only about the phrase “the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it”.

Anyway, the phrase “gates of Hades” or “gates of Hell” or similar phrases are seen in other places in the Bible as well. Anyway, here they are:"I said, ‘In the prime of my life I shall go to the gates of Sheol; I am deprived of the remainder of my years.’ " (Isaiah 38:10)

"Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?" (Job 38:17)

“Their soul abhorred all manner of food, and they drew near to t****he gates of death.” (Psalms 107:18)

“Have mercy on me, O LORD! Consider my trouble from those who hate me, You who lift me up from the gates of death.” (Psalms 9:17)
This is the passage in question (in case you haven’t read it before)“Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.’” (Matthew 16:17-18)
Here is Strong’s and Thayer’s definition of “Hades”:G86
ᾅδης
hadēs
hah’-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave,** hell**.

G86
ᾅδης
hadēs
Thayer Definition:
  1. name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
  2. Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
  3. later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
    Part of Speech: noun proper locative
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492
    Citing in TDNT: 1:146, 22
    And here is the definition of the word “Sheol”, as the one seen in Isaiah 38:10, where the phrase “gates of Sheol” is found:H7585
    שׁאל שׁאול
    she’ôl she’ôl
    sheh-ole’, sheh-ole’
    From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.
    So in short, both Hades and Sheol pretty much mean the same place: the grave.
So when Jesus is speaking of the “gates of Hades” he is speaking of the “gates of Sheol” or, “the gates of the grave”. Jesus has the keys to these gates as it is seen in Revelation:“I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.” (Revelation 1:18)
Now going back to Matthew this is what I believe He tried to say: the grave was not going to have any power of the Church, because death has power no more, for He won; He has the “keys” to the “gates” of the grave, metaphorically speaking.

So the “gates of Hades (grave)” will have no say, they won’t be able to hold in the Church on the last day because He has the “keys” to the “gates” and when He decides for her (the Church) to come out they won’t have power over her. Now, leaving the symbolic talk, on the last day He is going to resurrect the Church and death and the grave won’t have any power over it for He won death, it has no power anymore over us.

This is my view of what Jesus tried to say in Matthew 16:18. Jesus will be able to resurrect the Church because He won over death. * “Death is swallowed up in victory. O Death, where* is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” (1 Corinthians 15:54-55) So when the “gates of Hades won’t prevail over the Church” it means that death won’t have the final say. At least this is my opinion.
 
This is my view of what Jesus tried to say in Matthew 16:18. Jesus will be able to resurrect the Church because He won over death. * “Death is swallowed up in victory. O Death, where* is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” (1 Corinthians 15:54-55) So when the “gates of Hades won’t prevail over the Church” it means that death won’t have the final say. At least this is my opinion.
Peter’s keys are those of the kingdom of heaven, not those of the gates of hell or death. Jesus didn’t say anything about giving the second set of keys away and your entire extrapolation is about that second set of keys, not the first one.

nefsc.noaa.gov/sos/spsyn/pg/redfish/images/fish.jpg
 
Peter’s keys are those of the kingdom of heaven, not those of the gates of hell or death. Jesus didn’t say anything about giving the second set of keys away and your entire extrapolation is about that second set of keys, not the first one.

nefsc.noaa.gov/sos/spsyn/pg/redfish/images/fish.jpg
What are you talking about? :confused: I was not even thinking about the ‘keys’ of Peter. All I said in my post was that “the gates of Hades will not prevail against her” meant that she will be resurrected, and death won’t have a say (or the grave, to be more precise).
 
What are you talking about? :confused: I was not even thinking about the ‘keys’ of Peter. All I said in my post was that “the gates of Hades will not prevail against her” meant that she will be resurrected, and death won’t have a say (or the grave, to be more precise).
But then what does your extrapolation have to do with the topic of this thread (“Apostasy”)?
 
But then what does your extrapolation have to do with the topic of this thread (“Apostasy”)?
Not really. I only gave my opinion of what “the gates of hell shall not prevail” actually means. The author of the thread seems to believe that it means the Church will not be doctrinally wrong. I posted my belief on that issue saying that the phrase, in my opinion, actually means that death won’t have a say (the “gates of the grave” will not prevail against the Church since Jesus has the “keys” to these gates, metaphorically speaking) on the last day.

So no. Look at it as a short parenthesis.
 
Not really. I only gave my opinion of what “the gates of hell shall not prevail” actually means. The author of the thread seems to believe that it means the Church will not be doctrinally wrong.
What about all this?

[BIBLEDRB]Jn 16:13[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Jn 14:26[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Lk 10:16[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Jn 2:27[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 15:28[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Mt 28:20[/BIBLEDRB]
 
What about all this?

[bibledrb]Jn 16:13[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Jn 14:26[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Lk 10:16[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]1 Tim 3:15[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]1 Jn 2:27[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Acts 15:28[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Mt 28:20[/bibledrb]
Oh, so you really want to do this, don’t you? Unfortunately, I don’t.

So in the conclusion of my posts on this thread regarding that phrase in Matthew 16:18.The phrase “the gates of Hades shall not prevail against her (the Church)” found in The Gospel of Matthew Chapter 18 verse 16 does not mean that the Church won’t fall into doctrinal apostasy but it means that she will be resurrected on the last day and that death will not have power over it. My reasons for believing this are found in post #8 of this thread.
This is my opinion about it.

Have a nice day.
 
Oh, so you really want to do this, don’t you? Unfortunately, I don’t.

So in the conclusion of my posts on this thread regarding that phrase in Matthew 16:18.The phrase “the gates of Hades shall not prevail against her (the Church)” found in The Gospel of Matthew Chapter 18 verse 16 does not mean that the Church won’t fall into doctrinal apostasy but it means that she will be resurrected on the last day and that death will not have power over it. My reasons for believing this are found in post #8 of this thread.
This is my opinion about it.

Have a nice day.
It is my understanding that Hades is the abode of the dead and it was/is located under the earth and it consisted of Hell, prison/purgatory Luke 12:58-59, and the Limbo of the Patriarchs (or bosom of Abraham). Luke 16:22-24, Philippians 2:10 Abraham’s bosom was emptied out after Jesus died on the cross and opened the gates of heaven (which were previously barred on account of Adam’s sin – access to the Tree **of **“Eternal” Life was denied). Genesis 3:24, Revelation 2:7 Purgatory will be emptied out when Jesus returns at His Second Coming. All that will be left of these three after Jesus’ Second Coming is hell where the demons and evil humans will be tormented for eternity. Revelation 20:10, Revelation 14:11

Jesus’ Church will continually triumph over lies and deception and it will stand until He returns to take His remaining elect to heaven at His Second Coming. False prophets teach lies about the faith/Church of Jesus Christ. Jesus’ Church (the one that He gave the keys of the kingdom to) will always prevail against false prophets who teach lies. His Church teaches the Way, the Truth, and the Life of Jesus Christ. Truth results in Life eternal. Falsehood results in Death/eternal condemnation. Revelation 21:8

His Church’s living truths will never change so Hades (death) will never prevail against either His Church’s teachings or its faithful members.

Only God may judge the hearts of every man and woman.
 
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