Apostates: To be killed or saved?

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Epistemes

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Should individuals who apostate from the Christian faith be killed, as Muslims and Ancient Israelites are commanded to do, or should they be allowed to live?

First, let us clarify what an apostate is,

The Catechism says of apostasy: “*apostasy *is the total repudiation of the Christian faith.” (CCC 2089)

St. Thomas Aquinas characterizes apostasy as “a backsliding from God.”

If this is the case, then it may be said that the apostate no longer has sanctifying grace, and, as such, is in just as much peril as he who is in mortal sin. Of this, St. Paul says in the Epistle to the Hebrews:

For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt. (Heb. 6:4-6)

St. Thomas even confirms this when he says of he who falls away from grace that “man can nowise merit for himself restoration after a fall.” (Sum. The. I-II, Q. xiv. 7)

God, speaking through the prophet Ezekiel, says,

*And if the virtuous man turns from the path of virtue to do evil, the same kind of abominable things that the wicked man does, can he do this and still live? None of his virtuous deeds shall be remembered, because he has broken faith and committed sin; because of this, he shall die. * (Ezek. 18:24)

So, what use is the apostate after he apostates? Should he not then be executed?
 
Epistemes said:
Should individuals who apostate from the Christian faith be killed, as Muslims and Ancient Israelites are commanded to do, or should they be allowed to live?

First, let us clarify what an apostate is,

The Catechism says of apostasy: “*apostasy *is the total repudiation of the Christian faith.” (CCC 2089)

St. Thomas Aquinas characterizes apostasy as “a backsliding from God.”

If this is the case, then it may be said that the apostate no longer has sanctifying grace, and, as such, is in just as much peril as he who is in mortal sin. Of this, St. Paul says in the Epistle to the Hebrews:

For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt. (Heb. 6:4-6)

St. Thomas even confirms this when he says of he who falls away from grace that “man can nowise merit for himself restoration after a fall.” (Sum. The. I-II, Q. xiv. 7)

God, speaking through the prophet Ezekiel, says,

And if the virtuous man turns from the path of virtue to do evil, the same kind of abominable things that the wicked man does, can he do this and still live? None of his virtuous deeds shall be remembered, because he has broken faith and committed sin; because of this, he shall die. (Ezek. 18:24)

So, what use is the apostate after he apostates? Should he not then be executed?
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James 5:19: My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back,
20: let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
Epistemes,

The short answer is that we should not execute anybody for apostasy because we don’t know for sure whether he has done the final backsliding. It may simply be a temporary thing that he is doing.

After all, at what point do you draw the line? If you miss Mass three times in a row you can go to confession, but if you miss a fourth time you will be hauled into ecclesiastical court?

And if you get hauled into court and threatened with execution, it is a very rare person who will not just go along in order to save his skin; in the meantime, his soul benefits nothing and he can sow the seeds of rancor in the church. It would be better just to let the person live his life outside the Church and let God take care of him.
  • Liberian
 
The Heavenly King will punish obstinate apostates with everlasting torments–it’s not our job.
 
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Epistemes:
…St. Thomas even confirms this when he says of he who falls away from grace that “man can nowise merit for himself restoration after a fall.” (Sum. The. I-II, Q. xiv. 7)
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##** Indeed he can’t - after mortal sin, the life of grace is extinct; so of course it’s not possible.**
**I hope you aren’t suggesting that all those guilty of mortal sin should be eviscerated/burned/hanged/drowned/boiled alive/done to death in some other exciting way. Whatever else can be said against our forebears, they certainly knew a thing or two about how to extinguish the life/comfort/health/bodily integrity of those on the wrong side of the law. **
**
God, speaking through the prophet Ezekiel, says,
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**
***And if the virtuous man turns from the path of virtue to do evil, the same kind of abominable things that the wicked man does, can he do this and still live? None of his virtuous deeds shall be remembered, because he has broken faith and committed sin; because of this, ***he shall die. (Ezek. 18:24)
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**## Ezekiel spent his prophetic ministry as an exile in Babylonia: not only does that chapter say nothing of religious dissent in particular - it is not even concerned with apostasy, but with a change of life; in this verse, a change for the worse. Not all changes of life are apostasies, not even changes for the worse; otherwise every truthful man who became an habitual liar would be an apostate. **##
**
So, what use is the apostate after he apostates? Should he not then be executed?
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****In what spirit is the question asked ? **​

We are all useless to God. God did not save us because He needed us, & reckoned we would be “useful” (see also Luke 17.10); He saved us out of His sheer unmeritable gracious Love. People are not things, commodities, or instruments - they are people;nothing less, ever. To kill “apostates” is to show less patience than God, Who Alone converts, renews & preserves hearts; it is to use the weaponry of satan to do the work of Christ; Whom it makes into an object of fear & not love - & that is to preserve Christian faith by debasing it.

**Incontinent, diseased, handicapped old (or not so old) people are pretty useless - they are waste of money, & of space & other resources; & younger generations have their lives to live. So it would be practical, economic, & rational to exterminate the old. And thoroughly unChristian. **

**Usefulness is beside the point when one is considering human persons. It’s a justification for infamous crimes: a disliked group can be categorised as useless especially if it is to be “purged” for “the greater good” or for a “cause”: it’s a short way to thinking of it as malign, cancerous, dangerous, to be destroyed; & heretics have been regarded as cancerous growths: St. Thomas makes this comparison; that does not make it valid. This is the thinking behind the “liquidation” of “undesirables” such as Jews & heretics. Even the words used for what is murder are sanitised, clinicalised, de-humanised, de-personalised. **No wonder - “cleansing society” of “undesirable elements” is easier to regard as good, necessary, or essential if one is not dealing with human beings made in the Image of God. Admit their humanity - & murder is less easy. Those who sanctify their cruelties by pleading the greater glory of God or the like debase themselves & what they claim to serve.

That is what comes of stripping people of their God-given human dignity - that way lie murder, infanticide, abortion, euthanasia, pogroms, ethnic cleansing, “holy wars” - & the execution of religious dissenters. To return to such ways of doing things when one has got free of them is nothing but barbarism. ##
 
Liberian said:
Epistemes,

The short answer is that we should not execute anybody for apostasy because we don’t know for sure whether he has done the final backsliding. It may simply be a temporary thing that he is doing.
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In other words, it’s not the killing of someone who thinks differently than you that is objectionable, it’s simply that your level of certainty is insufficient with regard to the person’s intractability? Hmmmm.

So if you had a way of knowing with 100% certainty that I was not coming back to the Church, and that my backsliding into apostasy was complete, you would have no qualms about killing me?

I think that tomorrow I will visit a gunsmith. Just in case.
 
SteakNPotatoes said:
In other words, it’s not the killing of someone who thinks differently than you that is objectionable, it’s simply that your level of certainty is insufficient with regard to the person’s intractability? Hmmmm.

So if you had a way of knowing with 100% certainty that I was not coming back to the Church, and that my backsliding into apostasy was complete, you would have no qualms about killing me?

I think that tomorrow I will visit a gunsmith. Just in case.
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Nobody should be killed. Everyone has a chance to be saved right up to their dying breath. By killing someone you not only deny them that chance but you endanger your own soul.
 
SteakNPotatoes,

Pardon me, I misspoke. The uncertainty is a sufficient reason for not killing anybody; it most definitely is not the only reason. The original poster was citing Scripture in defense of killing apostates, and rather than get into a discussion of the merits of the Scripture passages I thought I was merely finessing the issue.
  • Liberian
 
That’s good because I never made it to the gunsmith. With all the ice and snow, I’ve been too busy backsliding… heh heh.
 
Liberian said:
SteakNPotatoes,

Pardon me, I misspoke. The uncertainty is a sufficient reason for not killing anybody; it most definitely is not the only reason. The original poster was citing Scripture in defense of killing apostates, and rather than get into a discussion of the merits of the Scripture passages I thought I was merely finessing the issue.
  • Liberian
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I should now say that I by no means endorse my original post, but these are the Scriptures often cited as evidence of Biblical commands to kill the apostate. I have been told that by not killing the apostate, we Christians are not adhering to our own Bible.
 
Epistemes said:
I should now say that I by no means endorse my original post, but these are the Scriptures often cited as evidence of Biblical commands to kill the apostate. I have been told that by not killing the apostate, we Christians are not adhering to our own Bible.
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And only a gooney bird would espouse such a thing. (With apologies to the poor bird).

Counter with this:
Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you:

Luke 6:27 But I say to you that hear: Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you.

Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies: do good, and lend, hoping for nothing thereby: and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the sons of the Highest; for he is kind to the unthankful, and to the evil.
 
I can’t believe I didn’t think of this earlier :eek: , but the story of the prodigal son (and other similar parables) would be highly applicable in such an instance.
 
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