Apostles Creed: Protestants changed a word

[Ginger2]

Because you cannot answer a question about a Latin phrase from a text originally written in Greek and Hebrew.

I thought this thread was about the word “catholic” and whether it was or was not removed from the Apostle’s Creed?

The Roman Creed was only brought up because that is where the Apostle’s Creed came from. Thus, the word Catholic was added later.

I have searched and searched and finally found the Lutheran church replaced the word Catholic with Christian. All the others say “catholic”

All this fuss over that… :tsktsk: Catholics are Christians, right. Why all this fuss?

Ginger2:

…I know atheists who were Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Yes, and they are Christians.

Really!!! I guess that’s why you object so strongly to the Lutherans replacing “catholic” with “Christian”

Do all Catholics believe atheists are Christians?

 

[mercygate]

I thought this thread was about the word “catholic” and whether it was or was not removed from the Apostle’s Creed?

The Roman Creed was only brought up because that is where the Apostle’s Creed came from. Thus, the word Catholic was added later.

I have searched and searched and finally found the Lutheran church replaced the word Catholic with Christian. All the others say “catholic”

All this fuss over that… :tsktsk: Catholics are Christians, right. Why all this fuss?

Really!!! I guess that’s why you object so strongly to the Lutherans replacing “catholic” with “Christian”

Do all Catholics believe atheists are Christians?

The Lutherans I know use the word “catholic” in the Creed. They think they are the “real” Catholics and that we are not.

 

[Ginger2]

The Lutherans I know use the word “catholic” in the Creed. They think they are the “real” Catholics and that we are not.

Thank you Mercygate,

I guess that settles it. Protestants did not change the Apostle’s Creed.

 

[mercygate]

Thank you Mercygate,

I guess that settles it. Protestants did not change the Apostle’s Creed.

No. SOME individuals or congregations might take it to themselves to “fix” what they believe to be an error. But like everything in the Protestant world, there is no single answer that covers “all” Protestant beliefs or formulations.

 

[Ginger2]

No. SOME individuals or congregations might take it to themselves to “fix” what they believe to be an error. But like everything in the Protestant world, there is no single answer that covers “all” Protestant beliefs or formulations.

I disagree. Catholics have a very broad definition of Protestant. (And some even have an unnaturally broad definition of Christian as we have seen.)

Catholic lump everything non-christian into Protestantism. Scientology is not Christian Protestants - it’s a cult.
JW’s is not Christian Protestants - it’s a cult.

Of course people and groups of people break off from Christianity. There are seeking false gods.

It was this way in Biblical times, yet Catholics always talk like it started in the 16th century.

Jhn 6:60-66
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
…But there are some of you that believe not…
From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

And so it is today. Find a true church and people will join to destroy the truth. Find a true church and some will leave to follow their own desires.

But God will call His own home from wherever they are. Catholic and Protestant alike.

True Christians believe the same basic doctrines or they are not really Christians.

 

[mercygate]

I disagree. Catholics have a very broad definition of Protestant. (And some even have an unnaturally broad definition of Christian as we have seen.)

Catholic lump everything non-christian into Protestantism. Scientology is not Christian Protestants - it’s a cult.
JW’s is not Christian Protestants - it’s a cult.

Of course people and groups of people break off from Christianity. There are seeking false gods.

It was this way in Biblical times, yet Catholics always talk like it started in the 16th century.

Jhn 6:60-66
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
…But there are some of you that believe not…
From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

And so it is today. Find a true church and people will join to destroy the truth. Find a true church and some will leave to follow their own desires.

But God will call His own home from wherever they are. Catholic and Protestant alike.

True Christians believe the same basic doctrines or they are not really Christians.

Ginger. Catholics who think about these things certainly do not lump all protestants together.

Moreover, we understand that JWs and Mormons are offshoots of Christianity but not authentically Christian because of their deviant doctrines of God.

Do you realize you have just done what you are chiding Catholics for doing?

 

[Ginger2]

Ginger. Catholics who think about these things certainly do not lump all protestants together.

Moreover, we understand that JWs and Mormons are offshoots of Christianity but not authentically Christian because of their deviant doctrines of God.

Do you realize you have just done what you are chiding Catholics for doing?

Are you saying you don’t consider them Protestant? Because if you are, you are the first Catholic to say so to me.

 

[Teflon93]

I thought this thread was about the word “catholic” and whether it was or was not removed from the Apostle’s Creed?

It was, until you tried to defend the practice by bringing in the Old Roman Creed and argued that the Church referred to in the Creeds was an invisible gathering of believers.

Changing the meaning of the Creed is surely as bad as changing a word, arguably worse since it’s not as transparent.

The Roman Creed was only brought up because that is where the Apostle’s Creed came from. Thus, the word Catholic was added later.

So you’ve said, yes.

I have searched and searched and finally found the Lutheran church replaced the word Catholic with Christian. All the others say “catholic”.

All the others? What of those Protestant communities which refuse to say any Creed at all? Do they not count?

All this fuss over that… :tsktsk: Catholics are Christians, right. Why all this fuss?

You’ll have to ask anti-Catholic Protestants. You’ll find many of them do not believe Catholics to be Christians at all. Indeed, a number of these claim to be “fundamentalists” and make the same argument you do regarding the need to adhere to a list of dogma to qualify as a Christian. Unfortunately, they cannot agree on the list.

We had a thread a few months ago seeking to define these “fundamentals” in a way all Protestants could claim to agree to. The closest we came was “The Apostles Creed”.

Which of course the first Protestants had received from the Catholic Church.

Really!!! I guess that’s why you object so strongly to the Lutherans replacing “catholic” with “Christian”

Do all Catholics believe atheists are Christians?

We were referring to those who had been validly baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, not atheists in general.

You’ll also find a number of former atheists on this board who have returned to the fold.

It happens, given time and God’s grace.

The phrase we use is, “Once a Catholic—eventually a Catholic.”

 

[Teflon93]

I disagree. Catholics have a very broad definition of Protestant. (And some even have an unnaturally broad definition of Christian as we have seen.)

No, our Orthodox brethren are not Protestant. We use it as historians do—to describe Christian communities which are the product of the Reformation and the endless schisms amongst themselves that have been the hallmark of Protestantism ever since.

Catholic lump everything non-christian into Protestantism. Scientology is not Christian Protestants - it’s a cult.
JW’s is not Christian Protestants - it’s a cult.

Actually, unlike most Protestants we do not ignore our Eastern brothers the Orthodox Church. Indeed, the East is in closer communion with the Church that the Protestant communities are.

Of course people and groups of people break off from Christianity. There are seeking false gods.

And false Churches.

It was this way in Biblical times, yet Catholics always talk like it started in the 16th century.

How many Arians do you see today? How many Donatists? How many Pelagians?

You see none, because these heresies were eliminated as St Paul urged.

Protestantism was and remains the heresy which stuck.

That is why we speak of it.

Jhn 6:60-66
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
…But there are some of you that believe not…
From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Yes and Protestants are to a man typical of this saying, lacking the Eucharist.

When Protestants hear what Christ taught in John 6 and believe—truly believe—they will return to the Church and the feast will begin.

Many of us have already made the journey across the Tiber.

And so it is today. Find a true church and people will join to destroy the truth. Find a true church and some will leave to follow their own desires.

The true Church cannot be destroyed or Christ is a liar for saying the gates of Hell would not stand against her.

There is only one Church which has stood from Christ’s commission to St Peter to this day—the Catholic Church.

But God will call His own home from wherever they are. Catholic and Protestant alike.

Yes, but the Catholic bus will serve wine.

True Christians believe the same basic doctrines or they are not really Christians.

You have yet to define these. It is not enough to say “basic doctrines”.

If that is too far OT please start another thread and define what those basic doctrines are.

 

[Ginger2]

It was, until you tried to defend the practice …

I never defended the practice - there was no “practice”

…by bringing in the Old Roman Creed and argued that the Church referred to in the Creeds was an invisible gathering of believers.

The Roman Creed was only brought up because that is where the Apostle’s Creed came from. The word Catholic was not in the original, but added later.

Why do I feel as tho we’ve already been thru this - I know!!! Because we have.

Changing the meaning of the Creed is surely as bad as changing a word, arguably worse since it’s not as transparent.

But no one has changed it.

All the others? What of those Protestant communities which refuse to say any Creed at all? Do they not count?

What Protestants refuse to recite the creed? Or are we lumping cults, and Buddhists and Muslims and whatever together with non-Catholic Christians again? Please take notice Mercygate.

We had a thread a few months ago seeking to define these “fundamentals” in a way all Protestants could claim to agree to. The closest we came was “The Apostles Creed”.

There, you see? We (Christians) all agree! :extrahappy:

Merry Christmas to all!!!

 

[Teflon93]

Are you saying you don’t consider them Protestant? Because if you are, you are the first Catholic to say so to me.

I’ll be the second. I’d have to see the theological lineage for the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses because I’m not sure they trace back to the Reformation but rather represent novel new heresies.

We take them rather at their word, as we do the Muslims when they claim to worship the god of Abraham. There is considerable debate as to whether Mormons are Christians given the slipperiness of their views on the Trinity.

As noted, and as found in the Creed, Catholics acknowledge one baptism as being valid—a Trinitarian baptism.

It is that which defines who is to be called a Christian or not.

Of course, it says nothing about whether or not one is a good Christian.

But Catholics have a full complement of sacraments to help people become better Christians.

 

[Ginger2]

How many Arians do you see today? How many Donatists? How many Pelagians?

You see none, because these heresies were eliminated as St Paul urged.

I thought I was finished here, but I can’t resist answering this one…I will provide one example for each, but there are probably more.

Arians - call themselves Jehovah Witness today. They believe Jesus is a created being

Donatists - call themselves muslim today. They believe true “believers” will not cave in under persecution.

Pelagians - call themselves universalists today. They believe everyone is going to heaven - period.

I think this thread has been exhausted. So I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year!

 

[Teflon93]

I never defended the practice - there was no “practice”

Rewriting history in a thread, now?

The Roman Creed was only brought up because that is where the Apostle’s Creed came from. The word Catholic was not in the original, but added later.

So you’ve said. Unfortunately for you, the Reformation happened some 1,400 years after the Old Roman Creed stopped being used and some 1,200 years after the Apostles Creed stopped being used in favor of the Nicene Creed.

Now, a good many Protestants also dusted off the Old Testament to restore the very profitable practice of tithing, but Christ did warn us about putting new wine in old wineskins.

Rejecting the wording of a Creed used by the Church since the 4th century because one simply cannot bring oneself to note that it was indeed the holy catholic and apostolic church one left to follow Luther, Calvin, Zwingli et al is the issue.

And Protestants have done this.

As with everything Protestant, one can never claim “all Protestants” do anything beyond reject the authority of the Church.

Why do I feel as tho we’ve already been thru this - I know!!! Because we have.

Perhaps sufficient repetition will drive it home.

But no one has changed it.

Old Roman Creed - 1st century
Apostle’s Creed - 2nd to 4th century
Nicene Creed - 4th century to present day
Reformation - early 16th century

Hopefully the timeline helps. The big jump is between the 4th and 16th centuries.

What Protestants refuse to recite the creed? Or are we lumping cults, and Buddhists and Muslims and whatever together with non-Catholic Christians again? Please take notice Mercygate.

We have never lumped them in in the first place.

Go check out some fundamentalist websites.

There, you see? We (Christians) all agree! :extrahappy:

Merry Christmas to all!!!

Umm, no. I said, “The closest we came…” Not all Protestants agree even with the Apostles Creed.

And the objection is in part that “catholic” word.

Wonder why?

 

[Teflon93]

I thought I was finished here, but I can’t resist answering this one…I will provide one example for each, but there are probably more.

Arians - call themselves Jehovah Witness today. They believe Jesus is a created being

Donatists - call themselves muslim today. They believe true “believers” will not cave in under persecution.

Pelagians - call themselves universalists today. They believe everyone is going to heaven - period.

I think this thread has been exhausted. So I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year!

Unfortunately you’re wrong on all three counts.

Give us the apostolic succession for the Muslims back to the original Donatists.

 

[mercygate]

Are you saying you don’t consider them Protestant? Because if you are, you are the first Catholic to say so to me.

In a sense they are “sort of” Protestant because both JWs and Mormons emerged from American Protestantism in the 19th Century. So they are more accurately considered Protestant heretics than Catholic heretics – but by any Chalcedonian Christian definition, they are not inside the pale of Christianity.

 

[epicous]

The term catholic means universal.