Apostolic Pentacostal beliefs?

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Darryl_B said:
Thanks for clarifying, you were stating arguments that were Arian in nature, since you had in effect only really been stating “what is wrong with Trinitarian view” type arguments and only really making the statement “my view is correct” without any substantiation, other than the time spent on your credibility.

So are you a modalist? As in the Oneness Pentecostal movement?
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In the 21st century you Catholics have this preconceived view of what other believe based on what others have defined nearly two thousand years ago.
 
Aeg071 said:
Originally Posted by Porknpie View Post
Aeg

I’m still waiting for you to provide any document from The Church that takes a position counter to the Trinity.

Any church records show the History and development of the Trinity and all the controversy that went with it. Up until councils Decreed the doctrine.

The church can’t teach me about God’s being, with that said I know what the Church. teaches. I also know what the church teaches must be consistent with scripture.I believe the idea that God’s very Essence and Being are shared among 3 hypostasis to be inconsistent with scripture.

Can any of you Catholics riddle me this. When the Jews took up stones to stone Christ. Can you say beyond a shadow of a doubt the Jews did so because Christ claimed to be God the Son the 2nd hypostasis of the Triune God. Can you say with certainty that is what the Jews believed Christ to claim. .

I generally know what the Church say, The Bible say and the traditions of men. Of course I will take The Holy Bible every time.
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When the Jews took up stones to cast at Christ it was because Christ saying He was the Son of God made Him equal to God. And they did not believe Him to be God.

Yes of course you have to stick with what you believe scripture to be saying otherwise you would wrong and that is a very hard thing for all of us to admit.
 
fbl9 said:
When the Jews took up stones to cast at Christ it was because Christ saying He was the Son of God made Him equal to God. And they did not believe Him to be God.

Yes of course you have to stick with what you believe scripture to be saying otherwise you would wrong and that is a very hard thing for all of us to admit.
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That is a good one most Protestant Trinitarian I ask that question will confess that the Jews did not envisioned the Trinity as what is taught today at that time.

But it has already been confessed by the Church that the doctrine is not explicitly taught in scripture and that the doctrine is a reflection of the theological debates over time at that time.

All that means to me is that It may not say that the Ousia is shared among 3 hypostasis but that is what we(The Church) came up with and now it is dogma.

The Bible say that God was manifested, The Universal Church say God is shared among 3 hypostasis .

The Trinitarian dogma splits hairs with tritheism and monotheism sort of in between the two .I just do not believe Here O Israel the Lord our God is One. Then qualified by saying but he is 3 hypostasis/prospons sharing the Ousia. is the message of the Shema. It sounds cute for storytelling. The idea of One Divine Essence is monotheism but the idea of shared, co-equal, co-eternal separate is trithistic overtones inconsistent with the word of God. Talk about having your cake and eating it too.
 
I am a convert to Catholocism from the pentecostal church of god and I will tell you I will never go to any kind of pentecostal church service again.or any other protestant church service.
 
Aeg071 said:
That is a good one most Protestant Trinitarian I ask that question will confess that the Jews did not envisioned the Trinity as what is taught today at that time.

But it has already been confessed by the Church that the doctrine is not explicitly taught in scripture and that the doctrine is a reflection of the theological debates over time at that time.

All that means to me is that It may not say that the Ousia is shared among 3 hypostasis but that is what we(The Church) came up with and now it is dogma.

The Bible say that God was manifested, The Universal Church say God is shared among 3 hypostasis .

The Trinitarian dogma splits hairs with tritheism and monotheism sort of in between the two .I just do not believe Here O Israel the Lord our God is One. Then qualified by saying but he is 3 hypostasis/prospons sharing the Ousia. is the message of the Shema. It sounds cute for storytelling. The idea of One Divine Essence is monotheism but the idea of shared, co-equal, co-eternal separate is trithistic overtones inconsistent with the word of God. Talk about having your cake and eating it too.
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Why was Christ crucified? Because Jews could not believe that Christ was the Son of God which made Him equal to God…
 
fbl9 said:
Why was Christ crucified? Because Jews could not believe that Christ was the Son of God which made Him equal to God…
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Jesus was Crucified so that God could shed His blood for the Church and reconcile us to Himself.

But they took up stones because Christ said He was the Son of the living God which was tantamount of Him saying that He was God.

I will quote from the Catholic Church Itself:- In scripture there is as yet no single term by which the 3 Divine hypostasis are denoted together. So the Jews would not think Christ was saying He was God the Son the second hypostasis of the Triune God.

God had revealed/manifested Himself by His Logos and His Spirit so I agree with the Church when it says: In scripture there is as yet no single term by which the 3 Divine hypostasis are denoted together. Seems to me that would be because there isn’t 3 Divine hypostasis to denote in the first place But that’s what has been decreed. I’m sorry but I am Sola Scriptura.
 
Aeg071 said:
Jesus was Crucified so that God could shed His blood for the Church and reconcile us to Himself.

But they took up stones because Christ said He was the Son of the living God which was tantamount of Him saying that He was God.

I will quote from the Catholic Church Itself:- In scripture there is as yet no single term by which the 3 Divine hypostasis are denoted together. So the Jews would not think Christ was saying He was God the Son the second hypostasis of the Triune God.

God had revealed/manifested Himself by His Logos and His Spirit so I agree with the Church when it says: In scripture there is as yet no single term by which the 3 Divine hypostasis are denoted together. Seems to me that would be because there isn’t 3 Divine hypostasis to denote in the first place But that’s what has been decreed. I’m sorry but I am Sola Scriptura.
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…peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Now why would St.Paul in almost all his epistles start with God the Father and Jesus Christ. Not as you believe God the Father our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
fbl9 said:
…peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Now why would St.Paul in almost all his epistles start with God the Father and Jesus Christ. Not as you believe God the Father our Lord Jesus Christ.
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You don’t have to quote such verses it was the Mother Church herself who said there was no single scripture to denote the 3 Divine hypostasis.Furthermore

Paul was not speaking of 2 Divine hypostasis. because he also said to us there is but One God our Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. He was speaking of One God and One man inseparably united obviously with a distinction of His person.All of which does not make 1,2,3 Divine Hypostasis/Prospon/Personae in the modern sense.

The church seem to have done exactly the opposite of what Paul said(american standard Bible) Have this mind in you,which was also in Christ Jesus.who,existing in the form of God. counted not the being on an EQUALITY WITH GOD A THING TO BE GRASPED. but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant being made in the likeness of men.and being found in fashion as man,he humbled himself,becoming obedient even unto death of the cross.
My point is the centuries and centuries and centuries of debate over Christ Equality with God was not something that should be necessary according to the Apostle Paul. Yet against what Paul specifically stated. Christianity is and has been divided over that very issue.

Someone implied that I was giving a Arian argument even tho my belief is completely opposite of what Arians believe. we can say everything we think we know about God’s being and it still would change the fact Christ is literally the embodiment of the Ousia
ie the radiance of God’s glory and the express image of His hypostasis,prospon/personae. God Incarnate.
 
Darryl_B said:
You’re. You’re unlearned.
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Did you say I am unlearned .LOL! I am well diverse in Church history and what The General Church teach. Growing up I always thought that Catholics didn’t read the Bible they read the missile which told them what the Bible said and meant. Because the Church said that is what it is.
When the Church stop exiling and burning people at the stake for not holding to the Trinitarian and all creedal dogma, The Protestant daughters were born Now you just call everybody heretics when before you could just burn us all at the stake after all the church and the government were practically union.

you have the nerve to call me unlearned when nearly every person who has addressed me on this site, does so as if we are still in the 3rd century so talk about unlearned.
 
Aeg071 said:
Did you say I am unlearned .LOL! I am well diverse in Church history and what The General Church teach. Growing up I always thought that Catholics didn’t read the Bible they read the missile which told them what the Bible said and meant. Because the Church said that is what it is.
When the Church stop exiling and burning people at the stake for not holding to the Trinitarian and all creedal dogma, The Protestant daughters were born Now you just call everybody heretics when before you could just burn us all at the stake after all the church and the government were practically union.

you have the nerve to call me unlearned when nearly every person who has addressed me on this site, does so as if we are still in the 3rd century so talk about unlearned.
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He just corrected your grammar. “You’re” as in “You are” not your. :o
 
Aeg071 said:
You don’t have to quote such verses it was the Mother Church herself who said there was no single scripture to denote the 3 Divine hypostasis.Furthermore

Paul was not speaking of 2 Divine hypostasis. because he also said to us there is but One God our Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. He was speaking of One God and One man inseparably united obviously with a distinction of His person.All of which does not make 1,2,3 Divine Hypostasis/Prospon/Personae in the modern sense.

The church seem to have done exactly the opposite of what Paul said(american standard Bible) Have this mind in you,which was also in Christ Jesus.who,existing in the form of God. counted not the being on an EQUALITY WITH GOD A THING TO BE GRASPED. but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant being made in the likeness of men.and being found in fashion as man,he humbled himself,becoming obedient even unto death of the cross.
My point is the centuries and centuries and centuries of debate over Christ Equality with God was not something that should be necessary according to the Apostle Paul. Yet against what Paul specifically stated. Christianity is and has been divided over that very issue.

Someone implied that I was giving a Arian argument even tho my belief is completely opposite of what Arians believe. we can say everything we think we know about God’s being and it still would change the fact Christ is literally the embodiment of the Ousia
ie the radiance of God’s glory and the express image of His hypostasis,prospon/personae. God Incarnate.
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It seems you are the one that doing the opposite of St.Paul as you are telling me you understand the thing that can not be grasped. Where as the Church states the doctrine of the Trinity is a mystery.
 
fbl9 said:
It seems you are the one that doing the opposite of St.Paul as you are telling me you understand the thing that can not be grasped. Where as the Church states the doctrine of the Trinity is a mystery.
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I actually only stated scriptures where as the Church has added unto God’s word terms and concepts even tho thee is no single scripture to demote such concepts has been deemed a mystery.
 
Kliska said:
He just corrected your grammar. “You’re” as in “You are” not your. :o
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That is correct, but more than that by extension it is implied that if you are going to ad hominem someone instead of presenting reasonable appeals to Scripture against that which is presented, leaving no real position that I could carry on the discussion further beyond that, then the least one can do is get that ad hominem right. Is that asking too much 🤷
 
Aeg071 said:
I actually only stated scriptures where as the Church has added unto God’s word terms and concepts even tho thee is no single scripture to demote such concepts has been deemed a mystery.
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Aeg, do you believe in the Eucharist, that the bread and wine are turned into the body and blood of our Lord or do you believe in some sort of symbolic meal?

PnP
 
Porknpie said:
Aeg, do you believe in the Eucharist, that the bread and wine are turned into the body and blood of our Lord or do you believe in some sort of symbolic meal?

PnP
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I believe in the Eucharist, that the bread and wine are turned into the body and blood of our Lord
 
Aeg071 said:
Let me clarify talking to the average Trinitarian protestant on the Trinity I find more often than not that their explanation is not the Orthodox definition of the Trinitarian dogma .What they end up explaining the Trinity to be, comes across as an answer Apostolic Pentecostals would give even tho by all accounts they are Trinitarian. I do believe that is because one would actually have to systematically be taught the doctrine of the Trinity .Average Christians reading the bible on their own usually would not draw the conclusion that scriptures declare the Ousia to be shared among 3 hypostasis. That has to be taught otherwise the average christian will and they do come to an Apostolic Pentecostal perspective of what the scriptures declares.Because of that I am not as obnoxious as Apostolic Pentecostals tend to come across when speaking about God’s nature.I know we will never see 3 individual subsistence Father,Son, Holy Spirit all sharing the Ousia . The doctrine makes God’s being out to be just like ours when it is not outside of the Logos made .flesh.
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Aeg -

In an earlier post I quoted the Council of Milan affirming the Trinity in the Apostles Creed. Here also is the writing of Rufinus writing in the 4th century commenting on the Apostles Creed. ** The link is here.**

In #10 he writes after speaking of the Holy Ghost

**This is the Trinity, everywhere latent, and everywhere apparent, distinct in names and persons, but inseparable in the substance of the Godhead. **And although the Son alone is born of the Virgin, yet there is present also the Highest, there is present also the Holy Ghost, that both the conception and the bringing forth of the Virgin may be sanctified.

The Apostles Creed is Trinitarian Aeg. You still haven’t provided any writings from The Church that says otherwise. Should one believe the writings of the Council of Milan and Rufinus, close in time to when the Apostles Creed was written or someone 1,600 years later with a different interpretation? What does logic tell you to do? 🙂

PnP
 
Aeg071 said:
I believe in the Eucharist, that the bread and wine are turned into the body and blood of our Lord
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Aeg,

Does your church has have a statement of belief on this, if so can you post it?

Who in your church has the power to turn the bread and wine into the blood and body of our Lord and how is this power conferred? Can both your pastor and laity do so? If not, why not?

PnP
 
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