Apostolic Succession and Martin Luther

[JoshuaNY]

Hey everyone. I was pondering Martin Luther and Apostolic succession.
Being a member of LCMS I do not beleive that this practice is divinely mandated, or required for the well-being of the church’s ministry.
Now this may be a stupid question, but here it is anyway. Martin Luther was an ordained Priest in the Roman Catholic Church so according to their teachings he had proper Holy Orders. I am not sure but I assume their were other Priests who were followers of Luthers teaching who also had Holy Orders. So other then the whole Excomunication thing, wouldn’t their Holy Orders still be Valid and move down the line to present day Lutherans?
Just something I was pondering today and figured I would see what others thought.

Joshua

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

A priest cannot validly ordain another person. So, even though Martin Luther was validly ordained, he could not pass that on. That is reserved to bishops. While it may be possible, and arguable, that a bishop or two followed Luther, bishops cannot ordain other bishops of their own accord - that requires approval of the Holy See. Further, once excommunication took place, it become unlawful for the exercise of sacramental ministry on the part of Luther or anyone who followed him.

 

[fermat]

Martin Luther did have valid holy orders. What he lacked was the ability to validly pass those on to others. Only a bishop can do so and only following the proper form. After Luther left the church, the proper form was not longer followed and/or the bishops were not the ones bestowing the holy orders so the line of succession was broken.

 

[pablope]

Hey everyone. I was pondering Martin Luther and Apostolic succession.
Being a member of LCMS I do not beleive that this practice is divinely mandated, or required for the well-being of the church’s ministry.
Now this may be a stupid question, but here it is anyway. Martin Luther was an ordained Priest in the Roman Catholic Church so according to their teachings he had proper Holy Orders. I am not sure but I assume their were other Priests who were followers of Luthers teaching who also had Holy Orders. So other then the whole Excomunication thing, wouldn’t their Holy Orders still be Valid and move down the line to present day Lutherans?
Just something I was pondering today and figured I would see what others thought.

Joshua

From Num 27:

15 Moses said to the LORD, 16 “Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation, 17 who shall go out before them and come in before them, who shall lead them out and bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD may not be as sheep which have no shepherd.” 18 And the LORD said to Moses, “Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him; 19 cause him to stand before Elea’zar the priest and all the congregation, and you shall commission him in their sight. 20 You shall invest him with some of your authority, that all the congregation of the people of Israel may obey. 21 And he shall stand before Elea’zar the priest, who shall inquire for him by the judgment of the Urim before the LORD; at his word they shall go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he and all the people of Israel with him, the whole congregation.” 22 And Moses did as the LORD commanded him; he took Joshua and caused him to stand before Elea’zar the priest and the whole congregation, 23 and he laid his hands upon him, and commissioned him as the LORD directed through Moses.

This is the example and method used by the Apostles in choosing and ordaining their successors. With divine guidance. It is an issue of authority and humble submission to it.

From Jesus to the Apostles, who were commanded and sent by Him, the Apostles chose and ordained successors in the Churches they established, with divine guidance. Even Paul, who had a direct revelation from Christ, was humble enough to submit himself to Cephas/Peter for approval prior to going out on his missions. And even before he went, he was ordained and sent by a higher authority.

So this begs the question, who sent Luther?

This is my humble opinion, those who disregard AS are saying it to justify their lack of AS, stating that it is not needed, and it is sort of defense mechanism to justify to themselves where they are at.

 

[JoshuaNY]

So in the RCC only Bishops may ordain, that was the missing link in my pondering. I appreciate your thoughts and comments.

And just to further discuss pablopes comment

And even before he went, he was ordained and sent by a higher authority.

So this begs the question, who sent Luther?

He was ordained by a higher athuority, so the RCC saw that he was fit to be a Priest. So you could argue the RCC sent him. He was not trying to start a new denomination, he was trying to reform the Church. The new denomination came later.

And I do not beleive us Lutherans are using it as a defense mechanism. Based on the following from the LCMS website

that the right to ordain was inherent in the priesthood (a principle on which a number of popes of the 15th c., among them Boniface IX, Martin V, and Innocent VIII, acted in authorizing Cistercian abbots who were only priests to ordain); that thence “an ordination administered by a pastor in his own church is valid by divine law”

Again, I am far from a theologian, just discussing and learning based on what I know of my Faith and the RCC.
Thanks everyone,
Joshua

 

[pablope]

So in the RCC only Bishops may ordain, that was the missing link in my pondering. I appreciate your thoughts and comments.

And just to further discuss pablopes comment

And I do not beleive us Lutherans are using it as a defense mechanism. Based on the following from the LCMS website

Again, I am far from a theologian, just discussing and learning based on what I know of my Faith and the RCC.
Thanks everyone,
Joshua

Thanks Joshua…

As far as this quote:

that the right to ordain was inherent in the priesthood (a principle on which a number of popes of the 15th c., among them Boniface IX, Martin V, and Innocent VIII, acted in authorizing Cistercian abbots who were only priests to ordain); that thence “an ordination administered by a pastor in his own church is valid by divine law”

There was an authorization from a Pope to do so, they did not act without that authorization. There is the difference.

But then what you quoted takes it the extreme. So the quote takes it that what a Pope authorized within the CC, the pastor can do also, even though he is not with the CC? The the question again…who authorized the pastor to do so?

I think I need to make a clarification…

When I asked who sent Luther?..

He was ordained by a higher athuority, so the RCC saw that he was fit to be a Priest. So you could argue the RCC sent him. He was not trying to start a new denomination, he was trying to reform the Church. The new denomination came later.

I meant the “after” when he separated from the Church. Sure, I think all acknowledge the reforms Luther saw and needed. But in the end, he took it to the extreme and established his own church…who gave him this authority to do so?

And look at the result…who took after his example.

 

[Erich]

Hey everyone. I was pondering Martin Luther and Apostolic succession.
Being a member of LCMS I do not beleive that this practice is divinely mandated, or required for the well-being of the church’s ministry.

Actually, there are four generations of apostolic succession described in 2 Tim 2:2:

And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

Paul → Timothy → those he entrusts (via imposition of hands) → those they entrust.

For that matter, Scripture also shows that apostolic succession is the ordinary means of transmitting apostolic authority and the Gospel message. I recommend reading, “By What Authority?”

 

[JoshuaNY]

I meant the “after” when he separated from the Church. Sure, I think all acknowledge the reforms Luther saw and needed. But in the end, he took it to the extreme and established his own church…who gave him this authority to do so?

And look at the result…who took after his example.

I hear ya. I agree finding another solution to keep the Church together would have been better. I continue to pray for Unification

For that matter, Scripture also shows that apostolic succession is the ordinary means of transmitting apostolic authority and the Gospel message. I recommend reading, “By What Authority?”

Thanks, I will read that and ill get back to you

Joshua

 

[pablope]

I hear ya. I agree finding another solution to keep the Church together would have been better. I continue to pray for Unification

Thanks, I will read that and ill get back to you

Joshua

Thanks, Joshua…as do I, and I think everyone on CAF.

Blessings to you…