Apostolic Succession and the Authority of the Pope in Question

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  1. “Vatican propaganda notwithstanding, Peter was never the “bishop of Rome… The first man who can be designated “bishop of Rome” with historical certainty is Anicetus, who stands eleventh in the Vatican’s somewhat fanciful list of early “popes…” Thomas Cahill, Pope John XXIII, Penguin Books 2002, pp1-2
Did you give up on using Scripture and Early Church Fathers to refute Catholic Truth?
Lets see what Snow left out, shall we?

VATICAN PROPAGANDA notwithstanding, Peter was never “bishop of Rome.”** In the five narrative books with which the New Testament begins-the four gospels and the Acts of the Apostles-Peter is given prominence, a prominence that would later be interpreted as his “primacy” over the other bishops of the primitive Church**. But the early Church communities had a congregational structure, like the synagogues from which they sprang. The word bishop (episkopos, or superintendent, in Greek) was at first interchangeable with the word elder (presbyteros, from which we derive our word priest) and did not signify rule over others.** After the death of the apostles, who had been the chief witnesses to Jesus’s life and teaching, and under the pressure of bizarre heresies and the consequent need to establish a voice of orthodoxy within each community, the Churches of the late first century began to single out an episkopos to take doctrinal charge of each local Church.** The Christian community at Rome, however, seems not to have adopted this strategy till toward the middle of the second century. The first man who can be designated “bishop of Rome” with historical certainty is Anicetus, who stands eleventh in the Vatican’s somewhat fanciful list of early “popes” and who served from 155 to his death c. 166.But Peter did die at Rome, crucified during the first widespread persecution of Christians-under the emperor Nero-and his bones surely lie beneath the high altar of Saint Peter’s Basilica. Rome’s possession of these bones, along with those of the other great martyr of the primitive Church, Paul-a rabbi converted to the new form of Judaism that would become Christianity and a missionary of such overreaching devotion that he was belatedly given the title “apostle”-would become in the generation after Anicetus the foundation of the Roman Church’s universal prominence.By the time of Ireneus of Lyons, who wrote in the last quarter of the second century, Rome had become the pilgrimage center of the Christian world on account of its shrines to the two martyred apostles, who were now imagined to have founded the Roman Church by shedding their blood, and ** Rome’s bishop was seen-at least by some-as final arbiter in disputes throughout the Christian world.** For Ireneus, as no doubt for many others, the Church of Rome was already “the great and illustrious Church,” and “every [other] Church-that is, the faithful everywhere-must resort to this Church on account of its pre-eminent authority, in which the apostolic tradition has been preserved without interruption.” Thus, within 150 years of Jesus’s crucifixion, within 75 years of the last of the New Testament writings, there was a well-attested tradition that the Church of Rome in the person of its bishop was the most reliable bulwark against doctrinal error and the last court of appeal in any matter that could not be settled locally. If the “Petrine succession”-the monarchical succession of the long line of popes from the apostle Peter-is little more than wish fulfillment,**it must be admitted that the roots of the Roman bishopric are ancient and most venerable, springing from the soil of the post-apostolic age, the age in which the Church as a whole took on a form of organization it would preserve to our day.Though in this early period the Roman Church was often seen as the common standard of orthodoxy, its orthodoxy was too flexible for many less elastic Christians. The bishop of Rome was often criticized for being too easygoing toward heretics and too forgiving toward sinners.**His critics favored purer priests, segregation by economic class, and lifelong penance for public sin.
**For all the honor and status accorded Rome in the Church’s early centuries, it was never imagined as unique among Churches, only primus inter pares, first in honor among equals. Other Churches, especially those with ancient bishoprics (like Antioch, Ephesus, Corinth, Alexandria, and Carthage), behaved more or less as Rome did, sending letters of encouragement and admonishment to younger, less distinguished Churches, offering monetary support, excommunicating when necessary. **But all the bishops were seen as successors to Jesus’s apostles, sharing apostolic responsibility for all the Churches and sharing also the apostolic power, which was unitary and indivisible, because it descended ultimately from Jesus, the Way.******Nor was criticism a one-way street that could be employed only by a greater Church against a lesser. In the midst of a raging controversy about whether it was necessary to rebaptize penitents who had lapsed during persecution, the African Churches, gathered under their unrelenting metropolitan bishop Cyprian, “the pope of Carthage,” condemned the more flexible position of Stephen, bishop of Rome, in three overwrought synods, accusing Stephen of “set[ting] himself up as a bishop of bishops” and “exercis[ing] the powers of a tyrant to force his colleagues into obedience.” Stephen replied serenely that he was Peter, the living representative of the first Peter, to whom Jesus had promised: "You are Peter [Rock in the Greek of the New Testament] and upon this Rock will I build my Church.
**
 
When looking at the Acts and Epistles…dissension is on the same level as witchcraft.

There is an excellent book out by Fr. Thomas Dubay, ‘Faith and Certitude’. He said continual and incessant dissension and doubt, disputes…is actually a form of intellectual sickness.

I read many years ago a paper referring to a Protestant academic who spent 27 years attempting to prove otherwise, that there was no apostolic succession of the Petrine papacy After painstaking research, he found out the Church’s claims were true.

People have to remember that at the time of the Apostles…the Church was as a seed. The institutional Church just did not instaneously fall down from heaven. Christ chose human beings, weak human beings to begin His Church. It was almost annihilated by the two last Roman emperors, who were overcome by then Emperor Constantine.
Exactly, problem is as I see today is that those outside the church will listen and swallow anything with is not Apostolic as the absolute Truth.

I listened for example last night about Fr Malachi Martins work preached by Cavinists who elevated “Windswept House” to the level of Bible. So then they would believe what a Catholic who left the Church has to say about the church, yet when the same Father tells the world that Fatima is an absolute truth, this is “satan” in their opinion. Then, and when the same Father tells the world their is No-Way around the Eucharist, by all means lets ignore that also. Such selective hearing, very obvious.

Peace
 
Yes Gary…

It is interesting that they themselves seek justification in condemning other forms of Christianity…in this case we Catholics. So part of it is based on I am better than you…I hope not, because it is not bearing the true fruit of Christ.

But this is what these preachers attach along with their Bible prosperity gospel where the depth of Scriptures is surface, remembering Bible quotes to lift one up or to hope to get some necessity or feeling the Holy Spirit…it is the combo I am addressing…anti-Catholic, using Scripture doing so or using it to just focus on particular quotes…never getting beyond ‘I am saved because I can say Jesus is My Lord and Savior’…saved at 40…condemned at 80?

Lack of truth, actively attacking the Church, the misuse of the Sacred Word of God that is to bring us life, not condemnation.
 
Hesychios;8998771]O.E. papa, from M.L. papa “bishop, pope” (in classical L., “tutor”), from Gk. papas “patriarch, bishop,” originally “father.” Applied to bishops of Asia Minor and taken as a title by the Bishop of Alexandria c.250. In Western Church, applied especially to the Bishop of Rome since the time of Leo the Great (440-461) and claimed exclusively by them from 1073.
This above is actually correct in that it identifies the Metropolitan of Alexandria as the first to use the word ‘Pope’ as a title of his office. Perhaps it is that the Metropolitan of Rome adopted the term in imitation, or perhaps it became popular as another way to say ‘patriarch’ (which means essentially the same thing) and it stuck.
Actually the **Church councils and Early Church Fathers addressed the Bishop of Rome officially as “PETER” **apostolic successor to the one Jesus appointed Shepherd over his flock before he ascended into heaven. See John 21
 
  1. “The papacy was to claim that Peter was the first bishop of the church at Rome… No proof exists.” Brian Maynahan, The Faith - A History of Christianity, Doubleday, 2002, p41
  2. “(The first succession lists, however, identified Linus, not Peter, as the first Pope. Peter was not regarded as the first Bishop of Rome until the late second or early third century.)” and “St. Irenaeus of Lyons (d. ca. 200) assumes that Peter and Paul jointly founded the church of Rome and inaugurated it’s succession of bishops (Against Heresies 3.1.2: 3.3.3). However, there is no evidence that Peter actually served the church of Rome as its first bishop even though the “fact” is regularly taken for granted by a wide spectrum of Catholics… Indeed, there is no evidence that Rome even had a monoepiscopal form of ecclesiatiscal government until the middle of the second century.” Richard P. McBrien, Lives of the Popes, Harper Collins 1997, pp29-30
Being the first Pope of the Catholic Church and being the first Bishop of Rome are two completely different things.

Jesus appointed St. Peter to be the Chief Shepherd (aka “Pope”) of the Church in 33 AD, and this is recorded in John 21:15-19 - "Feed my sheep … feed my lambs … feed my sheep … "

It doesn’t matter who was Bishop of Rome before St. Peter arrived there - what matters is that, no matter where he was residing, St. Peter was Chief Shepherd of the Church - whether he was in Jerusalem, or whether he was in Antioch, or whether he was in Rome.

We know as a matter of historical fact that he was crucified upside down in Rome by the Emperor Nero - which is why the Bishop of Rome received the Succession and became the Chief Shepherd of the Church in addition to being Bishop of Rome. Those two titles have been linked together pretty much ever since, except for a short period of time during some kind of persecutions against the Church in Rome, when the Papacy was removed to Lyons, France. (The Papacy did not cease to exist at that time; it simply changed locations.)

When Rome was re-Christianized, the Pope moved back to Rome, and there he remains until now.

Also, no serious Catholic claims that St. Peter was the only Bishop in Rome during the 60s and 70s AD - obviously, St. Paul was also there, and Linus, and Anacletus, and others. That takes nothing away from St. Peter’s unique position, given to him by Jesus Christ, of Chief Shepherd of the Church.
 
jmcrae;9001125]Being the first Pope of the Catholic Church and being the first Bishop of Rome are two completely different things.
Jesus appointed St. Peter to be the Chief Shepherd (aka “Pope”) of the Church in 33 AD, and this is recorded in John 21:15-19 - "Feed my sheep … feed my lambs … feed my sheep … "
Technicallly Peter is never a bishop, but an apostle possessing direct revelation of God. Bishops are handed down these revelations, teachings and practices directly from the Apostles as their apostolic successors.

Antioch owed its first bishop to Peter, and Alexandria owes its first bishop from Peter through his disciple Mark. Rome is where Peter’s bones have resided ever since Peter’s martyrdom. Antioch, Alexandria, Rome are all bishophorics from Peter. Antioch and Alexandria apostolic sees were usurped by the powerful Emperor appointed Patriarch of Constantinople. The Gates of hell prevailed against Alexandria and Antioch both fell into error or their Apostolic See was usurped and removed.

Rome is the only apostolic See that was never infected with heresy, when the gates of hell never prevailed over the See of Peter in the Popes. The popes preffered death first. All first 30+ popes since Peter were all martyred for the Catholic Faith.

Another technically should be mentioned about the Patriarchs. The office of Patriarch is never an Apostolic divine office, it is an ecclessial office which can be replaced or added any time. The Patriarch of Constantinople is never Apostolic, because Constantine the emperor placed his patriarch in Constaninople.
 
Technicallly Peter is never a bishop, but an apostle possessing direct revelation of God. Bishops are handed down these revelations, teachings and practices directly from the Apostles as their apostolic successors.

Antioch owed its first bishop to Peter, and Alexandria owes its first bishop from Peter through his disciple Mark. Rome is where Peter’s bones have resided ever since Peter’s martyrdom. Antioch, Alexandria, Rome are all bishophorics from Peter. Antioch and Alexandria apostolic sees were usurped by the powerful Emperor appointed Patriarch of Constantinople. The Gates of hell prevailed against Alexandria and Antioch both fell into error or their Apostolic See was usurped and removed.

Rome is the only apostolic See that was never infected with heresy, when the gates of hell never prevailed over the See of Peter in the Popes. The popes preffered death first. All first 30+ popes since Peter were all martyred for the Catholic Faith.

Another technically should be mentioned about the Patriarchs. The office of Patriarch is never an Apostolic divine office, it is an ecclessial office which can be replaced or added any time. The Patriarch of Constantinople is never Apostolic, because Constantine the emperor placed his patriarch in Constaninople.
Excellent; thank you. 🙂
 
I am seeking some answers about the Catholic understanding of Apostolic succession and the authority of the Pope. Here is my staple Protestant question…

Where can we go in history to see that Peter was the first Bishop of Rome? There is no evidence of this. The office of the Papacy was not solidified until hundreds of years after the deaths of the Apostles and there is no link between Peter being the first “Pope” and he who took his place as the official Pope much later.

On another note, why does the Pope dress so elaborately when Jesus himself and the Apostles themselves were very poor, had hardly a place to lay their heads? See what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 4:11-13 “To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are poorly dressed and buffeted and homeless, and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure; when slandered, we entreat. We have become, and are still, like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things.”
(1 Corinthians 4:11-13 ESV)

Don’t get me wrong, this is a huge problem in protestant circles as well. Just curious to know what Catholics think.
Mark
 
Yes, thanks to all the Catholics here for their (name removed by moderator)ut…

What was missing by those who contradict the rock of Peter is the Holy Spirit.

Again, it is the Holy Spirit at work through the primacy of Peter and the apostles and through the bishops in communion with them.

Apostolic succession has never been broken, but there have been corrupt popes, some very corrupt.

Does anyone have papal teachings that were taught by corrupt popes? Because when the pope teaches…in a certain defined level, he cannot err in faith and morals.

May be drawing teachings from a historically known corrupt pope could bear additional light…my pastor had a name for the one he considered most corrupt…the one who had the cardinals kept in a tower…I believe they were executed…Cardinals’ Tower?..

My point is that corruption does not break apostolic succession or schism.
 
=Christ Bearer;8990691]I am seeking some answers about the Catholic understanding of Apostolic succession and the authority of the Pope. Here is my staple Protestant question…
Where can we go in history to see that Peter was the first Bishop of Rome? There is no evidence of this. The office of the Papacy was not solidified until hundreds of years after the deaths of the Apostles and there is no link between Peter being the first “Pope” and he who took his place as the official Pope much later.
Iggy spoke quite well to this, so I won’t add to it.
On another note, why does the Pope dress so elaborately when Jesus himself and the Apostles themselves were very poor, had hardly a place to lay their heads? See what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 4:11-13 “To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are poorly dressed and buffeted and homeless, and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure; when slandered, we entreat. We have become, and are still, like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things.”
(1 Corinthians 4:11-13 ESV)
Don’t get me wrong, this is a huge problem in protestant circles as well. Just curious to know what Catholics think.
I will speak to this, however. I consider it an empty issue. There are few organizations in the world with a track record of helping the least of His children better than the Catholic Church. This current pope, and many others before him, seem to live the life of servant to His Church, and the people of the world. I’m not in any way moved by the argument that the Catholic Church should give up these traditions surrounding the pope and the Church.

Jon
 
When I hear and see arguments surrounding the “Authority” of the Pope, manner of dress and so forth. I think that the person making the argument is approaching it from a worldly view instead of a spiritual view.

Ever heard the term “Trappings of the office”? - It generally refers to the “things” that go along with an office or position. But I often think that “Trappings” is an excellent descriptor for some of these things.

The papal office is a “trap” that many would just as soon avoid. Ratzinger wanted to be released by Pope JP II so he could return to teaching and writing. But JP II needed him nearby and so Cardinal Ratzinger ended up becoming Benedict XVI.

His life is not his own. His schedule, his responsibilities, the great burden that he carries means he has almost NO freedom. He is indeed, the servant of the servants of God…

Peace
James
 
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