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aball1035
Guest
What do I say when a Protestant claims that apostolic succession isn’t biblical and therefore they don’t believe it? I think it’s more of a common sense issue and that it doesn’t need to be in the Bible.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
Well, actually, it is quite biblical as an act of passing on the office of bishop rather than apostle. The word bishop in the original Greek is epi-scopos to -over- look(see). That is where we get the word episcopal. (and episcopalian, I suppose… but don’t quote me on that…)
1Timothy3:1-13 describes the office of “overseer” (bishop) and that of deacon; Here Paul gives their qualifications as they are to “rule” over the church. 1Tim3:5 (as a husbandman).
It is in the context of describing the office of bishop that St. Paul calls the church 3:15 – “the pillar and ground of truth.”
This word “pillar” is also what Paul refers to Cephas(Peter) as “supposedly being”. So, it ought to be very clear that Paul here in Timothy is talking about the episcopate, eg: the bishops who are successors to the Apostles.
Note, especially: 1Tim 4:6 Where it is Timothy who is to bring the teaching of the church to mind; and in 1Timo 4:14 where timothy (who is clearly not an Apostle of the kind that the twelve and St. Paul were.) received his office through prophecy and the laying on of hands.
And finally in Timothy 4:22, Paul admonishes Timothy not to be hasty in laying his hands on any man (eg ordaining him as Timothy himself received ordination) lest Timothy be involved in sin through partiality or be responsible for a sinful bishop/deacon/etc.
1Timothy3:1-13 describes the office of “overseer” (bishop) and that of deacon; Here Paul gives their qualifications as they are to “rule” over the church. 1Tim3:5 (as a husbandman).
It is in the context of describing the office of bishop that St. Paul calls the church 3:15 – “the pillar and ground of truth.”
This word “pillar” is also what Paul refers to Cephas(Peter) as “supposedly being”. So, it ought to be very clear that Paul here in Timothy is talking about the episcopate, eg: the bishops who are successors to the Apostles.
Note, especially: 1Tim 4:6 Where it is Timothy who is to bring the teaching of the church to mind; and in 1Timo 4:14 where timothy (who is clearly not an Apostle of the kind that the twelve and St. Paul were.) received his office through prophecy and the laying on of hands.
And finally in Timothy 4:22, Paul admonishes Timothy not to be hasty in laying his hands on any man (eg ordaining him as Timothy himself received ordination) lest Timothy be involved in sin through partiality or be responsible for a sinful bishop/deacon/etc.
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Canto
Guest
NT canon - 300 years after Christ’s passion
Printing press - 1500 years after Christ’s passion
Middle ages - most people illiterate
Did Jesus pass on info to the Apostles and then after they all died that was it - every man for themselves and countless denominations starting up all teaching different things both on the ‘big’ and ‘little’ issues. Of course not.
Jesus set up a Church on the rock of Peter and made the Church the pillar and foundation of truth. There were Bishops who were succeded by people like Timothy and and Titus and Presbyers (nowadays called priests - wrongly translated in my opinion as elders) and Deacons. Paul says hold onto tradtion, wether written or oral, walk in tradtion and stay clear of those not walking in the traditon handed down.
How can tradtion be handed down, how can we know what books belong in the Bible if there is no Church in the sense of a structure, and not Bishops etc to succede the Apostles.
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JRKH
Guest
You can ask them to show you where Sola Scriptura is in the bible - Since it isn’t there they must not believe that either.
Perhaps you could ask them to follow a bit of logic with you.
When Jesus ascended to heaven, He knew he wasn’t coming back in the lifetime of the Apostles correct? (well yes)
So, if Apostolic succession, How was the unity of the Church to be maintained?
With no Bible canon coming until 400 AD, how was the teaching to be preserved?
With no mass produced bibles and little literacy, how were the teachings to be passed on?
Take it as an exersize in logic and “Church building”. Discuss with him what the logical steps would have been considering that Christ Himself prayed that the faithful be of one mind.
Too often people look at “The Church” of today and then simply jump back 2 millenia and say, “Well that isn’t how it was done then!”
Well Microsoft or Apple or IBM or Ford Motor Company looked and functioned very different when they were stating up in a garage or basement than they do today.
The Posters above have given good advise and Bible passages as well.
People who wish to read this or that into the Bible can usually do it. Likewise they can manage to read things “out of” the Bible too.
Sorry for rambling.
Hope there is an idea or two for you.
Peace
James
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Randy_Carson
Guest
How about it is both a common sense issue AND in the Bible.
APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION****
Numbers 27:15-23
Moses said to the LORD, “May the LORD, the God of the spirits of all mankind, appoint a man over this community to go out and come in before them, one who will lead them out and bring them in, so the LORD’s people will not be like sheep without a shepherd.” So the LORD said to Moses, “Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand on him. Have him stand before Eleazar the priest and the entire assembly and commission him in their presence. Give him some of your authority so the whole Israelite community will obey him. He is to stand before Eleazar the priest, who will obtain decisions for him by inquiring of the Urim before the LORD. At his command he and the entire community of the Israelites will go out, and at his command they will come in.” Moses did as the LORD commanded him. He took Joshua and had him stand before Eleazar the priest and the whole assembly. Then he laid his hands on him and commissioned him, as the LORD instructed through Moses.
Deuteronomy 34:9
Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites listened to him and did what the LORD had commanded Moses.
Matthew 16:18
“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”
Jesus did not say “churches”; he said, “church” – singular. Notice that Jesus did not say, “and on this rock I will build what I must call my loosely-affiliated network of non-denominational fellowships.” He said, “I will build my church.” Each word of that little phrase is packed with implication. We also see in this passage that the Church will never be defeated by Satan.
Matthew 28:18-19
“Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’”
First, notice in the passage known as the “Great Commission”, that the Apostles were commanded to make disciples of “all nations”. How would it have been possible for these Eleven men to travel to every country on earth at a time when travel was slow and difficult? Given that the last of the Apostles died no more than 60 years or so after the Ascension of Jesus, would there have been time for them to physically visit every nation on earth to fulfill His command? No! Clearly, the instruction of Jesus only makes sense if it was given to the Apostles and those who would take the place of the Apostles after their deaths. Those who took the place of the Apostles would have to have the same Apostolic Authority given to the Apostles handed down to them. Thus, the “Great Commission” would be fulfilled over time through the missionary efforts of a greatly expanded Church.
Second, how could He fulfill this promise if the disciples themselves did not live until the end of the age? Again, how could Jesus remain with the church until the end of the age if the Apostolic Authority of the church ended with the death of the last Apostle? Clearly, Jesus must have intended that the apostles would be succeeded by other men who are still with us and will live until the end of the age. Jesus can be with the Apostles through their successors who also have the same Apostolic Authority by means of Apostolic Succession.
John 14:16-17
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.”
Does it make sense for Jesus to say “forever” if He anticipated that the Holy Spirit would depart from the church with the death of the last Apostle? No! The Spirit would remain with the Apostles and, through those who succeeded them, with the church forever.
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Howie01
Guest
Would you include the Roman Catholic Church leadership in that statement as well, or would you exclude them, and the Roman Catholic laity?
IOW, when you wrote that, were you confining your belief contained in that statment only to non-Catholics?
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JRKH
Guest
OH how often simple statements and questinos can require so much thought and explanation. Now note that any answer I give is going to be my own opinion, just as the above statement is my opinion.
Yours IS a very good question.
Basically I was refering to
Mainly - Individuals. Particularly individuals who try to interpret scripture with no real knowledge or training in reading Scripture.
As to you reference to the “Church Leadership”, I think we would need to divide that statment in two parts. First the individual persons - such as lay, priests, bishops, cardinals, etc. and second the Actual Church teachings.
Individual persons can and sometimes do read in or out of Scripture what they wish. However Church teaching requires much greater consideration than an individual can usually bring. Plus we have the promise that Church Teaching is protected by the Spirit, so once something becomes official teaching it has that protection of being bound in heaven as on earth.
Additionally I would have to say that the Church Leadership, by virtue of their greater learning - seminary etc. - are less likely to misread or misinterpret scripture.
Relating this “Learning” aspect to non-catholic ministers who are graduates of a seminary or bible college, they certainly would be more likely to interpret scripture consistantly - at least consistantly with their training. The problem is the training, which is steeped in the protestant “dogma” that, the Catholic Church must be wrong. I apologize of this “broad” statement, but really it does boil down to this.
So I guess what I am trying to say is that mostly people are trying to gain a good understanding of the Bible, but that error will likely creep in unless they are willing to conform their wills to God’s will.
The Catholic Church contains the longest and most consistant teaching from Scripture. On the corporeal level, the Fact that it was the Universal (catholic) Church which assembled the Bible tends to preclude the bible containing anything contradictory to the teachings of the Church. On the Spiritual Level, the Fact that Christ Promised the Church His guidance and Protection also means that the Bible cannot contain anything contrary to Church teaching.
And please keep in mind that, when the Bible was assembled, even the East West Split had not occurred. Thus it was truly the Universal, that is Catholic, Church.
The fact that others try so hard to put the Bible in opposition to the Church is the main thing that I was refering to in my original statement.
Finally I know this answer is a bit rambling and I apologize for that.
It is indeed a good question and I believe points to something very important. The fact that the Church has such a large and detailed catachism is precisely because she is trying to answer “simple” questions like the one you raised.
Peace
James
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teachccd
Guest
I’m not sure that I read through all of these posts thorougly but wasn’t Matthias the successor of Judas? This is quite explicit in Scripture: Acts 1:15-26
15 During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said, 16 “My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry. 18 He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out. 7 19 This became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem, so that the parcel of land was called in their language ‘Akeldama,’ that is, Field of Blood. 20 For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.’ And: ‘May another take his office.’ 21 Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.” 26 8 Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.
15 During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said, 16 “My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry. 18 He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out. 7 19 This became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem, so that the parcel of land was called in their language ‘Akeldama,’ that is, Field of Blood. 20 For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.’ And: ‘May another take his office.’ 21 Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.” 26 8 Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.
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Zenas
Guest
Like someone has said, “apostolic succession” isn’t in the Bible. Neither is the “trinity” or a number of other terms we have invented to explain a concept that is clearly in the Bible. The passages cited on this thread all support the concept of apostolic succession. I would like to add one more.
I think this shows apostolic succession as clearly as anything can. Paul, an apostle ordained by God, has ordained Timothy as a bishop. Now he is instructing Timothy to ordain other faithful men so they can teach others. Apostolic successsion is scriptural. Anyone who says otherwise is either blind to the truth or doesn’t want to know the truth.
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SHW
Guest
Hi Randy,
Good job!
The apostles and (disciples) did preach to the entire known ancient world within their lifetimes. However, their successors needed to preach to every person born after these apostles’ deaths. This succession is to go on until Jesus’ return.
The “new” world(s), such as the Americas and Australia, etc. had not yet been discovered so all of the indigenous persons living there would have to be evangelized after they were discovered.
Romans 1:8 “First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.”
Acts 2:5 “And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.”
Romans 1:5-6 “Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;”
Romans 16:25-27 “Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith— 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.”
SHW
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