Apostolic Succession - Why should it have ended?

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NotWorthy

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I’m curious. Jesus gave the Apostles the power to bind and to loose, obviously to help mold early Christians. As heresies and questions arose, the authority of the Apostles helped resolve these disputes (i.e. Circumcision, Gentile participation, Gnosticism, etc.).

My question is, did Jesus think that all these questions would be answered and there would be no need for any future Church Authority? Or did Jesus realize that there would be at least one or more heresies that would arise and threaten the Church and it’s teachings (i.e. Docetism, Arianism)?

The answer, is obvious to me and most Catholics, but how does someone who doesn’t believe in Apostolic Succession deal with this?

NotWorthy

P.S. I hope I spelled all the -isms correctly? I don’t have my notes handy, so this was off the top of the ol’ noggin’.
 
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NotWorthy:
The answer, is obvious to me and most Catholics, but how does someone who doesn’t believe in Apostolic Succession deal with this?
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Um, you pray sincerely about it, and the Holy Spirit will tell you the correct answer.

Remember, to a protestant, everyone is infallable EXCEPT the Pope.
 
No, the Pope is not infallible, just his teachings. Let’s not give anybody any wrong ideas.

NotWorthy
 
Hmmm . . . I’m not sure Protestants even think about it that way.

The way they think about it is kinda like a master mason who’s allowed a number of bricklayers to work on the foundation of a large building for a few months. One day, he decides to hang a plum line to see how well they’ve done their job and he’s stunned to find it’s waaaayyyy off plum. The walls are so far off and so large and complex, that there’s no use in going back to find out which bricklayer and which bricks were the source of the problem, they just can’t be fixed and the future building could never be completed. When he reports this to the master builder, his boss, he’s told that he’s wrong and that the building is fine. He knows better and decides that the owner of the house won’t be pleased with it, so he starts a new one from scratch.

Protestants view scripture as their “plum line”. They know a lot of stuff happened from the time when the building was started 'til Luther finally challenged Rome, but because of it’s complexity and it’s association with the original building crew, who they view as having badly messed up the building, they don’t trust it. The only thing they can rely on is scripture which is the last reliable stone laid by the Apostles.

In theory, Apostolic Succession would be important, but they believe that the successors messed up so bad, that they no longer had a right to be “in charge”. To them, it’s more important to build the house the way the owner wanted. Also, anyone who’s a student of history, realizes that many, if not most, of the bishops and popes of the Dark Ages, had little in common with the Apostles they were supposed to have succeeded. Titles in the Church paralleled the nobility in the socio-political world at the time. Leadership in the Church was given to those who could wield power, not to those who were most Christlike. And many of those bishops and popes throgh those years were corrupt. So the Apostolic Succession concept was polluted by the Church, again, in the view of Protestant.

I’m not trying to argue for the Protestant position, just trying to help you understand it better. I’ve lived on both sides of this isle for 20 years (20+ years as a Catholic and 20 + years as a Pentecostal), so I have a perspective on both.

David
 
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DavidB:
Hmmm . . . I’m not sure Protestants even think about it that way.

The way they think about it is kinda like a master mason who’s allowed a number of bricklayers to work on the foundation of a large building for a few months. One day, he decides to hang a plum line to see how well they’ve done their job and he’s stunned to find it’s waaaayyyy off plum. The walls are so far off and so large and complex, that there’s no use in going back to find out which bricklayer and which bricks were the source of the problem, they just can’t be fixed and the future building could never be completed. When he reports this to the master builder, his boss, he’s told that he’s wrong and that the building is fine. He knows better and decides that the owner of the house won’t be pleased with it, so he starts a new one from scratch.

Protestants view scripture as their “plum line”. They know a lot of stuff happened from the time when the building was started 'til Luther finally challenged Rome, but because of it’s complexity and it’s association with the original building crew, who they view as having badly messed up the building, they don’t trust it. The only thing they can rely on is scripture which is the last reliable stone laid by the Apostles.

In theory, Apostolic Succession would be important, but they believe that the successors messed up so bad, that they no longer had a right to be “in charge”. To them, it’s more important to build the house the way the owner wanted. Also, anyone who’s a student of history, realizes that many, if not most, of the bishops and popes of the Dark Ages, had little in common with the Apostles they were supposed to have succeeded. Titles in the Church paralleled the nobility in the socio-political world at the time. Leadership in the Church was given to those who could wield power, not to those who were most Christlike. And many of those bishops and popes throgh those years were corrupt. So the Apostolic Succession concept was polluted by the Church, again, in the view of Protestant.

I’m not trying to argue for the Protestant position, just trying to help you understand it better. I’ve lived on both sides of this isle for 20 years (20+ years as a Catholic and 20 + years as a Pentecostal), so I have a perspective on both.

David
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Christ established the foundation almost two thousand years ago. If we continue with the building example, the current Protestant position would be the reestablishment of the foundation in the 16th century, while calling it the original.

Also, there was some corruption in the history of the Church, we are only human after all, but this corruption did not extend to what was core Dogma.

Peace
 
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dennisknapp:
Also, there was some corruption in the history of the Church, we are only human after all, but this corruption did not extend to what was core Dogma.
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That’s the key point. :yup:
 
St Paul said in the last days many shall depart from the faith or what was once held as pure and holy. Even in the church there shall be a falling away before the Antichrist shall make his appearing. The world is growing more immoral everyday. Abortion, child abusing priests, divorce, same sex marriage, gay rights, etc. Even our present Pope is hated for being to conservative. Priests want to be married and women want to be ordained. There is a war within our church. And a war from the outside as well. An immoral world seeks to make ridicule of our beliefs as “old fashioned”, discriminating and unfair. Pray for our Pope, that God will give him strength to endure.
 
“And I shall be with you always” and “The gates of hell will not prevail against you”.

Have Faith!

NotWorthy
 
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dennisknapp:
Christ established the foundation almost two thousand years ago. If we continue with the building example, the current Protestant position would be the reestablishment of the foundation in the 16th century, while calling it the original.

Also, there was some corruption in the history of the Church, we are only human after all, but this corruption did not extend to what was core Dogma.

Peace
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Jesus will give all Christians His Holy Spirit, and that is the plumb line. If the Christians were walking in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and spoke up and told everyone when the church started going off then it wouldn’t have gotten so out of line.
 
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NotWorthy:
No, the Pope is not infallible, just his teachings. Let’s not give anybody any wrong ideas.

NotWorthy
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Don’t do as I do. Do what I say? That Is close to what Jesus said about the Jewish leaders, before He established the Kingdom of God. Jesus gave us His Holy Spirit to keep us in line. How can anyone believe an apostle (bishop) could be a true apostle and not be guided by the Holy Spirit?
 
Robert Heibel:
Jesus will give all Christians His Holy Spirit, and that is the plumb line. If the Christians were walking in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and spoke up and told everyone when the church started going off then it wouldn’t have gotten so out of line.
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The Church isn’t out of line. Of course, in your misguided opinion it is. Why don’t you humble yourself and learn something instead of claiming to be the only source of true knowledge about Christ?
 
Robert Heibel:
Don’t do as I do. Do what I say? That Is close to what Jesus said about the Jewish leaders, before He established the Kingdom of God. Jesus gave us His Holy Spirit to keep us in line. How can anyone believe an apostle (bishop) could be a true apostle and not be guided by the Holy Spirit?
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Good point! The issue with the Jewish leaders is that Jesus chastising them for remaining holy while preventing others from achieving heaven. Once again, Robert, your task is easy. Show me where our leaders brought up teachings that prevent people from going to heaven.

Is it the Real Presence? Better check your history. Is it the Sacrament of Penance? Once again, its in the books. Purgatory, is that where they went wrong? How about the Papacy? Just show me where the early church did not believe in these things and then you have a case.

NotWorthy
 
A non-denominational Christian can agree with the RCC on
the nature of the Mass, and pray like an Evangelical.

I accept the RCC as the original [first] Church and have
no problem with some of the corrections offered by the Reform Churches.

My non-denom song: [to the tune of “You take the high road…”]

You take the first Church
And you take reformed Church
And I’ll watch the parade pass be-forrrre me
I’ll pray with the one group,
And then with the other,
And slip into heaven betweeeeen ya

☘️

reen12
 
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justcatholic:
St Paul said in the last days many shall depart from the faith or what was once held as pure and holy. Even in the church there shall be a falling away before the Antichrist shall make his appearing. The world is growing more immoral everyday. Abortion, child abusing priests, divorce, same sex marriage, gay rights, etc. Even our present Pope is hated for being to conservative. Priests want to be married
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It is only a matter of discipline that they are not, in the Roman Rite.​

and women want to be ordained. There is a war within our church. And a war from the outside as well. An immoral world seeks to make ridicule of our beliefs as “old fashioned”, discriminating and unfair. Pray for our Pope, that God will give him strength to endure.
Click to expand...

St.Cyprian was deploring the evil times in the 250s - and St.Paul did likewise, 200 years before him.​

People always think their own times are desperately evil, and that no generation has been as corrupt and wicked as their own. The ghastliness of the young was being deplored 4000 years ago. :). And will doubtless be deplored 4000 years in the future; by which time, the early 2000s will no doubt be regarded much as some regard the Middle Ages - as a time to which we should return.

All this shows, is that man is the creature who is never content.

We should, of course, pray for the Holy Father. I can’t think of a more dreadful burden. ##
 
Question: In Acts we see that they wanted to choose a successor for Judas from among those who walked with Jesus. I’m dealing with a guy who says that was an absolute requirement, and therefore, since the last apostle and disciple died apostolic succession died with it. Yes, I know there are a bunch of other verses to support apostolic succession, however, he probably won’t get off of this verse and his absolutist hold on it.

Can anyone give me a little nudge out of this mudhole?

Thanks,
MM
 
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montanaman:
Question: In Acts we see that they wanted to choose a successor for Judas from among those who walked with Jesus. I’m dealing with a guy who says that was an absolute requirement, and therefore, since the last apostle and disciple died apostolic succession died with it. Yes, I know there are a bunch of other verses to support apostolic succession, however, he probably won’t get off of this verse and his absolutist hold on it.

Can anyone give me a little nudge out of this mudhole?

Thanks,
MM
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What other Apostles (besides Judas) are shown to be similarly replaced in Scripture?

James (Acts 12:1), Phillip? Any of them?

Peace
 
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EA_Man:
What other Apostles (besides Judas) are shown to be similarly replaced in Scripture?

James (Acts 12:1), Phillip? Any of them?

Peace
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Are you asking me? I’m asking how to get around the (apparently arbitrary) assertion that because they “had to” get a successor from the pool of those who walked with Christ, that requirement invalidates apostolic succession…
 
…if you are not Catholic, you have to believe that somewhere along the line the gates of Hell had to prevail, or else you would be Catholic…

or at best, a fallen away catholic with subtle disagreements with Christ Church, … you know, “protestants”…

viscious circle, i know…

http://mediasoftware.free.fr/index.1.jpg
 
space ghost:
…if you are not Catholic, you have to believe that somewhere along the line the gates of Hell had to prevail, or else you would be Catholic…

or at best, a fallen away catholic with subtle disagreements with Christ Church, … you know, “protestants”…

viscious circle, i know…

http://mediasoftware.free.fr/index.1.jpg
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Um, thanks, but I’m looking for something a little more solid than that. How does the requirement to pull from the pool of those who walked with Christ" NOT invalidate apostolic succession.

I’m being a bit lazy about this because he posted a six-page post on various things about apostolic succession. It’s here if you want to check it out: Post 172 or so by a guy named Matt14. bibleforums.org/forum/showthread.php?t=38119&page=12&pp=15
 
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