Apparently the good Bishop Hasn't Read the New Arizona Immigration Law

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Actually, people who are aliens, legal or illegal, MUST carry ID.
The issue is US citisens do not need too, about the only reason they need to have ID is for the need of performing a licensed act like driving, hunting, etc, etc. They do need to give a name and address if their is a crime invovled, but not have an ID.
 
If you or anyone is stopped for breaking any type of law and you cannot demonstrate you are who you say you are with some form of ID, then law enforcement has the right to detain you until that can be established.

Why should anyone have a problem with that?

Joe B
That’s the point, they don’t have the right, a US citizen is not required to produce ID unless they are performing a licensed activity. Name and Address yes, but not an ID.
 
So basically, if you jaywalk without ID expect to be held in jail until they determine who you are 😃 But don’t worry, i’m sure the tone of your skin or the accent in your voice won’t make any difference to the officer :rolleyes:
Your statement seems to imply a racial underpinning to illegal immigration. Care to explain what you were alluding to?
 
Americans allow our Police to be armed, and to use their judgement and training on when to use lethal force. If they should ever use that legal force wrongly they will suffer the legal consequences.

Why do a few Bishops, and some politicians automatically “judge” that ALL Police Officers are bad ?
Personally, I will support each Police Officer until given a reason not to. Without their good work we would have chaos.
Say a prayer for Police Officers right now - for their safety and right judgement.
 
That’s the point, they don’t have the right, a US citizen is not required to produce ID unless they are performing a licensed activity. Name and Address yes, but not an ID.
Once again that is the point of reasonable suspicion. If you are stopped in the act of breaking a law, whatever it is, and the police cannot verify who you are, they can detain you. “Detain” can mean as little as waiting while they check your “story” on computer in their car.

My opinion here…
to use a metaphor…when you have people break into your house, east your food, use your electricity, break your things, and show up at a party right along with your guests who have come in through the front door, enjoy the hospitality you’ve planned specifically for them, would you not have to the right to remove them from your property?

What I have just described is social anarchy, not social justice. For social justice to have any meaning it must pertain to everyone. That includes dealing with those who would steal from others (among other offenses). This law will help to restore and maintain social order. Justice must include protection for Americans and it’s legal guests as well.

If you are a citizen, it is not difficult whether or not you are actually carrying ID or not for police to be able verify your status. We verify who we are all the time with a host of online services and that same information can be used by police to be able to verify your status in America. If you can’t provide the information without ID to verify your status, then you’ve just given a police officer reasonable suspicion to further investigate if you’ve been stopped for even the smallest violation of some law.

And if you can’t provide even information to do a quick verification of your identity and status because you are here illegally, then the law works. This is probably the only way to accomplish this task. Anything else would be nothing and social anarchy would reign, (as it has been in this particular situation)

Joe B
 
The issue is US citisens do not need too, about the only reason they need to have ID is for the need of performing a licensed act like driving, hunting, etc, etc. They do need to give a name and address if their is a crime invovled, but not have an ID.
All these people up in arms over Arizona’s Law forget or didn’t know ] that it mirrors the 1940 Naturalization Laws. ** Since, 1940 “anyone” asked of their citizen status has had to show ID.**

The 1940 Naturalization Laws can be found library.uwb.edu/guides/USimmi…tat%201137.pdf . These are the laws illegals have made a conscious effort daily ] to break.

Here is the Arizona Law SB1070 azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
 
I understand the heart of the Bishop’s message and sympathize with it in a way. I believe, however, they have failed to account for the extent lawlessness creates an environment where no one can thrive. The entire issue is, to me, a study in the manner in which rational thought is discarded in favor of political advantage.

For example, the Arizona law mirrors existing federal statute.Some seem to be advocating that federal felons not be able to be apprehended by local authorities, which is a strange reversal of the typical. Imagine, for example, a felon wanted by the FBI for bank fraud who could only be apprehended by the FBI. Generally, and common sense dictates, the situation is the reverse - the more local the agency, the broader the statutory (as opposed to geographic) jurisdiction. The FBI, for example, is limited to the enforcement of some several hundred federal statutes, the broadest grant of federal enforcement agencies, but have no special authority to break up a fight in the street. By the same principle, local ordinances cannot be more lax than state or federal statutes, but can be more restrictive. And again, this makes sense, where broader ground rules are set closer to the top of the hierarchy. In the matter of immigration, we want to reverse all that and say that local law enforcement cannot enforce federal statute, and that local statute cannot restrict what federal statute restricts. Makes no sense.

Just as curious to me is the notion that reasonable suspicion is something invented by Arizona state officials, when it is and has been the standard level of proof needed for a police stop anywhere I have ever experienced. Anyone with a misspent youth will be familiar with being stopped by police and asked for an i.d. when one finds himself in compromising circumstances (i.e. walking in a strange neighborhood in the early morning hours). Maybe you were out with college buddies drinking and they left you behind to walk. Maybe your girlfriend drove, you argued, and there you are walking. If you cannot produce i.d., or spell your name or provide a dob consistent with your age, or supply an SSN, is there any doubt in your mind the police would have investigated further? Asked your address and how you arrived there? Possibly detained you within the parameters of the state law? And wouldn’t they be correct in doing so - even negligent if they did not? Of course they would.

So what are the good Bishops and others advocating? That the police not follow up on reasonable suspicion if the person stopped cannot speak English? That the police, having developed probable cause that you are in violation of federal statute release you if that statute involves your nationality? Or perhaps that the Feds set up neighborhood patrols that look the other way on all offenses other than immigration violations?

For their own reasons, and in the case of politicians of both parties, what they are really advocating is doing nothing, passing laws that sound serious and effective, but not enforcing them. The victim is the rule of law, on which we all depend for our tranquility and way of life.
 
First of all how many people on this forum have ever been stopped for jaywalking and second, do all of you really go out in public without your ID? :confused:
  1. I have been stopped for jaywalking. When I was 13, I was jaywalking and a police officer decided to stop me and sit me on the curb to lecture me about the importance of not jaywalking on a potentially busy street on my home from school. Sometimes, officers can have a slooooooow day in my county.
  2. Unless i’m driving I don’t usually carry ID. This is because I have my money on a clip, separate from my card holder. Wallets are fine, but this is just the system i’m used to.
Your statement seems to imply a racial underpinning to illegal immigration. Care to explain what you were alluding to?
I guess i’m a little cynical of this law not being abused at some point. As per my previous post, I don’t mind getting rid of illegal immigrants, or even searches / ID verification, but I believe there should be strict adhered to rules of conduct that initiate these actions. As previously stated, a radio host who reviewed some of Arizona’s probable cause justification stated that nervousness was an acceptable answer. This does not sit well with me.
 
An Oregon Bishop has written that we must respect illegal Immigrants as persons. This is true.

However, we must also respect the Arizona Police Officers as persons, as to not assume they are going to break the law. Innocent until proven guilty.
 
An Oregon Bishop has written that we must respect illegal Immigrants as persons. This is true.

However, we must also respect the Arizona Police Officers as persons, as to not assume they are going to break the law. Innocent until proven guilty.
👍👍

AND it isn’t disrespectful to hold accountable a person who is participating in illegal activities.
 
All these people up in arms over Arizona’s Law forget or didn’t know ] that it mirrors the 1940 Naturalization Laws. Since, 1940 “anyone” asked of their citizen status has had to show ID.

The 1940 Naturalization Laws can be found library.uwb.edu/guides/USimmi…tat%201137.pdf . These are the laws illegals have made a conscious effort daily ] to break.

Here is the Arizona Law SB1070 azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
"There is no true national identity card in the United States of America…"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_documents_in_the_United_States

As I said, you need to identify yourself verbally if asked by a LEO, or have a license for a licensed act. They cannot arrest someone for only not having an ID.
 
Once again that is the point of reasonable suspicion. If you are stopped in the act of breaking a law, whatever it is, and the police cannot verify who you are, they can detain you. “Detain” can mean as little as waiting while they check your “story” on computer in their car.

My opinion here…
to use a metaphor…when you have people break into your house, east your food, use your electricity, break your things, and show up at a party right along with your guests who have come in through the front door, enjoy the hospitality you’ve planned specifically for them, would you not have to the right to remove them from your property?

What I have just described is social anarchy, not social justice. For social justice to have any meaning it must pertain to everyone. That includes dealing with those who would steal from others (among other offenses). This law will help to restore and maintain social order. Justice must include protection for Americans and it’s legal guests as well.

If you are a citizen, it is not difficult whether or not you are actually carrying ID or not for police to be able verify your status. We verify who we are all the time with a host of online services and that same information can be used by police to be able to verify your status in America. If you can’t provide the information without ID to verify your status, then you’ve just given a police officer reasonable suspicion to further investigate if you’ve been stopped for even the smallest violation of some law.

And if you can’t provide even information to do a quick verification of your identity and status because you are here illegally, then the law works. This is probably the only way to accomplish this task. Anything else would be nothing and social anarchy would reign, (as it has been in this particular situation)

Joe B
Sorry, but there is no need for me to carry ID to walk down the street and maybe walk accross it if there are no cars. I need to give a name and address, but that is it.
 
“There is no true national identity card in the United States of America…”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_documents_in_the_United_States

As I said, you need to identify yourself verbally if asked by a LEO, or have a license for a licensed act. They cannot arrest someone for only not having an ID.
Actually, you can not identify yourself verbally anymore. Your link states so.
On 31 January 2008, officers at land and sea ports of entry stopped taking oral declarations of citizenship from travelers; all individuals entering the U.S. are now required to present documentary proof of identity and citizenship.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_documents_in_the_United_States
On January 31, 2008, U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers stopped taking verbal declarations of citizenship from U.S., Canadian, or Bermudian travelers as proof of citizenship at sea and land ports of entry.[3]
continued
 
The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI) is a law of the United States that requires all travelers to show a valid passport or other approved secure document when traveling to the U.S. from areas within the Western Hemisphere.[1][2] The purpose, according to the U.S. Department of State and U.S. Department of Homeland Security, is to strengthen border security and facilitate entry into the United States for both legitimate U.S. citizens and foreign visitors. The initiative is an outcome of the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act. The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative was also implemented to prevent false documents.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Travel_Initiative

While it is true that there is no one National Identity card. There are accepted Identifiers.
  • On March 27, 2008, the departments of Homeland Security and State announced in a final rule that “full implementation” of the land and sea provisions of WHTI would begin June 1, 2009; on that date, the following types of documents will become the only acceptable documents for border crossings:[4]
  • U.S. citizens and nationals: Valid passport, passport card, state enhanced driver’s license approved by the Secretary of Homeland Security, or trusted traveler program card (NEXUS, FAST, or SENTRI); a valid Merchant Mariner Document when traveling in conjunction with official maritime business; or a valid U.S. military identification card when traveling on official orders. The final rule also outlines ongoing efforts to provide other alternative documents.
  • U.S. lawful permanent residents: Lawful Permanent Resident Card (Form I-551).
  • Canadian citizens: A valid passport, provincial enhanced driver’s license (available in Manitoba[5], Quebec[6], British Columbia,[7] and Ontario)[8] or a valid trusted traveler program card (FAST or NEXUS).
  • Bermudian citizens: A valid British Overseas Territories passport.
  • Mexican nationals: A valid passport and a visa or a valid Form DSP-150, B-1/B-2 laser visa (also called a Border Crossing Card, or BCC); a valid SENTRI card may be used for access to expedited border crossing lanes.
Native Americans in the United States, Mexico, and Canada may be able to use certain additional forms of identification (in addition to the documents valid for citizens of those countries):
  • Members of the Kickapoo Band of Texas and Tribe of Oklahoma will continue to be able to use the I-872 American Indian Card (provided that it identifies them as Kickapoo), regardless of U.S. or Mexican citizenship.
  • Members of other U.S. tribes may use an “Enhanced Tribal Card”, when available and approved by DHS.
  • Members of Canadian tribes may be allowed to use the proposed Secure Certificate of Indian Status being designed by Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, if approved by DHS.[9]
In short…try cashing a check without ID…try entering to my school without ID.
 
"They cannot arrest someone for only not having an ID.
No one is saying they can…The Arizona Law doesn’t say it.

But what it does say…in the event of a lawfully executed probable cause…it can attempt to determine identity and citizenship status. It can detain you for deportation if you are here illegally. Being here illegally would become the arresting charge OVER and above any charges that might have been committed in the Probable Cause.
 
That’s the point, they don’t have the right, a US citizen is not required to produce ID unless they are performing a licensed activity. Name and Address yes, but not an ID.
If you are commiting a crime…or there is lawful Probale Cause - they have every right.

Actually, if you are committing a crime or there is lawfully executed Probable Cause…you can withhold your identity - BUT the Law Enforcement Officer in that case, will not just issue you a ticket Say in a traffic violation ] Because a ticket is in lieu of bond / arrest Try not signing a ticket ]…you will be transported - detained - fingerprinted - mugshot - and ran through NCIC.
 
US bishops oppose ‘draconian’ Arizona immigration law

In a statement released April 27, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) denounced a recently signed law in Arizona which criminalizes undocumented immigrants, calling the legislative move “draconian” and saying it “could lead to the wrongful questioning and arrest of U.S. citizens.”
No, this law does not “criminalize” undocumented immigrants. Aliens who either enter the country illegally or over stay a legal visit are already criminals. The only new class of criminals created by this law are legal residents and citizens who transport illegal aliens into or within the state of Arizona
The issue is US citisens do not need too, about the only reason they need to have ID is for the need of performing a licensed act like driving, hunting, etc, etc. They do need to give a name and address if their is a crime invovled, but not have an ID.
Your kidding me, right? US citizens are required to produce ID for many acts other than “licensed acts” like driving. Try buying cold medicine without ID. Or beer. Or going to the doctor? Or picking up a prescription at the drug store? Or visiting your child’s classroom at school? Or starting employment? Or visiting the White House? Or getting onto an airplane? Or picking up a certified letter at the post office?
 
However, we must also respect the Arizona Police Officers as persons, as to not assume they are going to break the law. Innocent until proven guilty.
Yes, and I will go one step further. The State of Arizona should have respected them enough to leave the decision to pursue the question of citizenship in the hands of the officer. I totally concur with prohibiting policies that prevent officers from questioning citizenship, but officers need a free hand to enforce all laws, not just immigration law. Checking citizenship is not always the best course of action.
 
Clearly you haven’t read the law.
Further, if you had read the law, you would see that it is clearly directed at those who are breaking other laws first, not the average man on the street.

I sent a copy of the Arizona law to the USCCB late this afternoon.

I apologize if I am short. It comes from working with too many politicians (all of whom have opinions) and most of whom have not read the bills to which they are referring.

All people including illegal immigrants are innocent until proven guilty.
They must go through the Court system, no one can throw someone out the Country without due process.

I am sending you the link to US immigration courts regarding my statement of “due process” to get you started in your legal studies for accuracy in future statements - justice.gov/eoir/sibpages/ICadr.htm
 
Okay, this may be wandering into politics, but…

AZ has the right to protect its citizens. The Feds were supposed to have been protecting the border (it’s one of their Main Jobs), but were not; haven’t been for years.

So if the Feds are not doing the job, then I think state of AZ MUST step in to protect citizens who want to live there, are law-abiding, pay their taxes in order to live there, etc.

A friend told me that her friend who lives in AZ keeps an extra refrigerator out on the porch, outside of the home, just so illegal immigrants who come through looking for food and water won’t BREAK INTO THE HOUSE.

I’ve also read (or heard on the radio) that people coming across the border leave trash and human waste in people’s yards. That just should not happen, yet property owners in AZ (and other border states) have to put up with this!

Thank you kimmielittle for all the links provided. You are learning a lot, aren’t you?

As far as carrying I.D., if stopped for a traffic violation in my state, if I do not have a valid driver’s license on me, I believe I have 24 hrs to provide one.

There is a move here to give immigrants temporary licenses. I have a problem with that, especially if they can’t read English well enough to pass a driving test. This is one of the things supported by the many Alinsky-style community organizations all over the country, by the way.

Bishops should help us understand how to help those in need, but still admonish those who break the law. Without adherance to and enforcement of the law, we will have anarchy!

Mimi
 
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