Apparitions of Mary

[Eschato]

I am a born again christian who was Catholic but heard the True Gospel and received Jesus Christ as my Savour.

 

[KJK80]

I reject these apparitions as from Satan - he is the deceiver but we like to see apparitions, so Satan will provide them for us.

Way to go Satan!

Per the Catechism:

The Lord who has taken away your sin and pardoned your faults also protects you and keeps you from the wiles of your adversary the devil, so that the enemy, who is accustomed to leading into sin, may not surprise you. One who entrusts himself to God does not dread the devil. “If God is for us, who is against us?”

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275

**2119 **Tempting God consists in putting his goodness and almighty power to the test by word or deed. Thus Satan tried to induce Jesus to throw himself down from the Temple and, by this gesture, force God to act. Jesus opposed Satan with the word of God: “You shall not put the LORD your God to the test.” The challenge contained in such tempting of God wounds the respect and trust we owe our Creator and Lord. It always harbors doubt about his love, his providence, and his power.

**2116 **All forms of *divination *are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

 

[Eschato]

That’s because we who are born again do not believe in praying to Mary or saints and Catholics do. Satan appears as an angel of light and just because it may look like Mary doesn’t mean it is. There is a book called: “The Beautiful Side of Evil” by Johanna Michelson who got into some real weird stuff trying to call up spirits and how God brought her out of it into the truth of the Bible. We are not to seek signs. Remember Satan still has power to deceive. If we do not read the Bible for ourselves we shall be deceived. Especially when the message the vision of Mary contradicts the Word of God. Mary was a human being just like you and I and we should not seek her. She was chosen to carry Jesus but she would not want to be worshipped nor would God want us to worship her. The Bible says to test the spirits to see if they are from God, so that means there are spirits or visions that do not necessarily come from God.

That’s kind of the point of this thread. It is (or was) a group of Catholics testing the spirits of the apparitions to personally discern whether they are good or evil. I don’t think that you will get any converts on here. The people on this thread seem to have very strong foundations and understanding of the faith which you have turned away from. You don’t seem to understand the Catholic faith all that well, and I invite you back into the Church. I read a good book by David B. Currie that helped me decide to convert. It is called “Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.” I recommend that you at least glance through it or read a couple chapters from it. Particularly the ones about the Eucharist, Mary, and Ecclesiastical Authority. If nothing else, that will give you a better understanding of Catholicism from a Catholic viewpoint.

 

[Eschato]

]I do not believe Mary or any of the saints can appear to us.

What happened at the Transfiguration? The annunciation? Do you not believe that God has the power to send messengers? I don’t get it. Isn’t God all powerful? My problem is that a lot of Fundamentalists try to limit the power of God.

 

[Eschato]

The Bible says there is none perfect - no not one. Mary was born of man from the sin nature in each one from Adam and Eve, so she had a sin nature. Jesus was born of her but did not take sin from her - He was supernaturally born of the Spirit implanted in her.

Catholics say they do not worship her, but they pray to her and other saints. "There is only ONE mediator between God and man and that is JESUS CHRIST. That is what the Bible says. Satan causes us to pray to others so he can manipulate what is said to us. He is a deceiver and liar.

Citation please.

 

[sapamarogi]

I hope your not suggesting the Satan has the upperhand to intimidate over God.

How do we test the spirits? Consider Abraham when he as asked to sacrifice his son; That sounds like an ungodly request. Why do suppose Abraham was able to recognise God, but we are unable to recognise Mary?

Satan does not have the upper hand over God, but he is free to roam as the Bible says: “Be of sober spirit, be on the ALERT. Your ADVERSARY, the DEVIL, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. But resist him, firm in your faith.” 1 Peter 5:8,9. Also, it says: " Finally, be strong in the LORD, and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm against the SCHEMES OF THE DEVIL. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, bu against the rulers, against powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." Ephesians 6:11,12. When Jesus was on earth He was tempted of the devil in the wilderness. He used the WORD OF GOD - it is written to overcome him. So must we use the Word of God - spoken word. Satan’s time is short but we too must know the TRUTH or he will deceive us and God expects us to know HIS WORD and use it against Satan. Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and his time is short,so he is trying to deceive all he can.

Also, read: 2 Thessalonians 2:8-11 “And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of HIS MOUTH and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the TRUTH so as to be saved. And for this reason God will send upon them a DELUDING INFLUENCE so they might believe what is false.” Obviously Satan has the power to deceive and delude and only those who read the Word of God will not fall into his deception.

 

[sapamarogi]

The Transfiguration was JESUS and that was for the apostles. Jesus going into heaven is for our benefit but not Mary. God sends messengers (his angels) to do his bidding and to carry out his Word. Be careful saying Mary or the saints can appear. Don;'t think so.

God is all powerful but Satan is here too and he is a deceiver so he can appear as an angel of light so we are to test the spirits whether they are of God.

 

[sapamarogi]

Citation please.

None good: Psalm:53:3 “Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Romans3:23 " For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:10 “There is NONE righteous, not even one; there is NONE who understands, there is NONE who seeks good,there is NOT EVEN ONE. Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they keep deceiving… etc.”
Also, Romans 3:19 says: “Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that EVERY MOUTH may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law, NO FLESH will be justified in His sight.” Pretty clear we are all sinners from Adam (received his sin nature) and so did Mary. You choose to believe she was without sin but the is your choice and God in His Word is telling you HIS Word.

One Mediator: 1 Timothy 2:5 " For there is ONE GOD and ONE MEDIATOR also between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS." It is written.

 

[Alexius]

The Transfiguration was JESUS and that was for the apostles. Jesus going into heaven is for our benefit but not Mary. God sends messengers (his angels) to do his bidding and to carry out his Word. Be careful saying Mary or the saints can appear. Don;'t think so.

God is all powerful but Satan is here too and he is a deceiver so he can appear as an angel of light so we are to test the spirits whether they are of God.

The Transfiguration was when Peter, James and John witnessed Jesus with Moses and Elijah on either side. So, saints can in fact be seen after there death–they can appear to believers. The question is, why then and not now. GOD could do it to prove His truth to the Apostles, so why not to Christians of this day and age?

I honestly understand where you are coming from. I don’t expect that you’ll accept this…I pray that you will grow in Christ.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Linda_Marie]

I believe the children saw the visions. But because God does not send Mary or any of the saints to come to us, it was not of God.

How do you know that He doesn’t send them? How do you know that this is not being done by the power of the Holy Spirit? God has sent visions many times in the past. Abraham, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Obadiah, Zechariah, the Apostle John, the Apostle Paul. Paul wasn’t even a follower of Christ when he was struck with his first vision - from God, and look at the results from that. Do not be so quick to judge it to be satan.

God speaks to us through His Word. Sometimes people see angels but they are sent to help us on earth if we are in need. God does not allow people who have died to communicate with us here on earth after they die. We forget satan has his demons and he is here to deceive us.

Then who was that on the mount with Jesus and Peter and John? Elijah and Moses? Weren’t they dead??? Well, Moses was but Elijah had been assumed body and soul into heaven. It is entirely with the power of God to send Mary to give us messages.

You say it was only for the Apostles, a small select group. Well,not many people see visions of the Virgin. It is a pretty small select group. At Guadalupe, it was only one man. Millions of people converted to Christianity as a result of his visions. Our Lady led them to her Son.

Your fallible opinion (which means you could be wrong) says that God doesn’t have the power to send Mary, that only satan has any power to send visions or apparitions, that God never has before and never will? Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying.

You are always talking about the CHURCH testing the spirits. We as christians are supposed to test the spirits for ourselves through the Word of God - we have the Holy Spirit and he is the helper sent to us to lead us into all truth - plus the Word of God which is infallible.

No, we, as Christians, are a community, a CHURCH who Jesus prayed would be One in Him. We are not supposed to test spirits with solely our own judgement because each of us, individually, have not been given the gift of infallibility. Even you have admitted that you are fallible. Each of us on our own, could make a fallible conclusion about the validity of a spiritual matter. Fortunately, God has given us a Church that has been given the grace of being able to pronounce infallibly in the matter of faith and morals.

You may not worship Mary, but you do pray to her. Where in the Bible does it say to pray to Mary or the other saints? You have taken the teaching of your church over the Word of God and that is the problem. A church is man made and man in fallible, but the Word of God is not.

Where does it say that we cannot pray to Mary?

Our church is not man-made. It was made by God, founded by Jesus upon Peter, First of the Apostles, personally instructed by Jesus Himself. The promise of infallibility in the teaching of faith or morals falls to the successors of Peter. I have full faith that this promise is true and that the Church has been graced with the authority to pronounce in the name of Jesus.

Jesus is a King, not a President. Before He ascended into heaven, He gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom, which means that Jesus made Peter the final authority in His Church. In the time of Kings, when the king left the country for any reason, he would give the keys of the kingdom into the hands of his viceroy. The viceroy had the kings’ full authority to act in his name. Peter gets his authority from God.

We have maintained our direct unbroken line of succession to the First Bishop of Rome, Peter and we have held faithfully to the teachings of Christ. The Holy Spirit still guides His Church or all of Scripture is a lie.

 

[meandean]

sapamarogi;3491228:

Well that won’t get you anywhere with me.

If they are actual apparitions of Mary then there is no reason to suppose that they are not of God also.

Satan was an angel of light. Appearing as such wouldn’t be an exhausting effort, would it?

To answer the first question, because you aren’t listening to him. To answer the second, you are absolutely right. If the apparition says anything contrary to tradition, the Bible, or Church doctrine, then it isn’t right. The problem is that some of the apparitions in question (even those as of yet unconfirmed) is that they have failed to say anything contrary to the teachings of the Church.

Who has been deceived?

the one who is more loyal to his religion then his lord

 

[KJK80]

Eschato;3498961:

the one who is more loyal to his religion then his lord

I’m sorry, I don’t see the difference.

 

[meandean]

meandean;3499931:

I’m sorry, I don’t see the difference.

please read the testimony of paul in phillipians 3:1-14, or even acts 19:1-7.

 

[KJK80]

please read the testimony of paul in phillipians 3:1-14, or even acts 19:1-7.

OK, I read them. Now what?

 

[meandean]

OK, I read them. Now what?

could you not tell the difference of someone serving their religion and someone serving the lord? i’m not here to lead you for if i could, i would be able to lead myself. and that we know would be the blind leading the blind. but jesus did say to follow him, so go to him . just get alone with god and ask him to be your teacher. he’ll let you know.

 

[KJK80]

could you not tell the difference of someone serving their religion and someone serving the lord? i’m not here to lead you for if i could, i would be able to lead myself. and that we know would be the blind leading the blind. but jesus did say to follow him, so go to him . just get alone with god and ask him to be your teacher. he’ll let you know.

Your religion and my religion must be very different things. If your definition of religion includes the opportunity for error then why do you follow it at all? Else, you must not have any religion at all? Or your religion is entirely personal… which is foreign to my beliefs… I’m sorry, but I think we must be discussing two different things here.

Per the American Heritage Dictionary:

re·li·gion (rĭ-lĭj’ən)
n.

1. 
   *]
   1. 
      *]Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
      *]A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

1. 1. 
      

      *]The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
      *]A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
      *]A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

 

[meandean]

Your religion and my religion must be very different things. If your definition of religion includes the opportunity for error then why do you follow it at all? Else, you must not have any religion at all? Or your religion is entirely personal… which is foreign to my beliefs… I’m sorry, but I think we must be discussing two different things here.

Per the American Heritage Dictionary:

your very booksmart, and i believe you want to have an answer for everything. thats cool, 1 peter 3:15. but if god tells you to walk by faith and not by sight, then how do you respond when god remains silent ? now i know whom i serve, for his sheep know his voice.do i read and study the bible? you bet. do i allow the holy spirit to interpret his word? without a doubt. are we really discussing to different things or the same god? see my friend, it is god who wants to be with us. we don’t go looking for him just like a robber don’t go looking for a policeman. he is the one who draws us out. he is the one looking for his lost sheep.

 

[KJK80]

your very booksmart, and i believe you want to have an answer for everything. thats cool, 1 peter 3:15. but if god tells you to walk by faith and not by sight, then how do you respond when god remains silent ? now i know whom i serve, for his sheep know his voice.do i read and study the bible? you bet. do i allow the holy spirit to interpret his word? without a doubt. are we really discussing to different things or the same god? see my friend, it is god who wants to be with us. we don’t go looking for him just like a robber don’t go looking for a policeman. he is the one who draws us out. he is the one looking for his lost sheep.

Either you’re saying I don’t walk by faith.

Or you’re saying the Holy Spirit has not guided in interpreting His word?

Or you’re saying I don’t look for God.

Or you’re saying I’m a lost sheep?

Or all the above? I’m somewhat lost, please help me. Just say what you want to say. I can handle it, trust me.

 

[Brian_Reeves]

The Bible says there is none perfect - no not one. Mary was born of man from the sin nature in each one from Adam and Eve, so she had a sin nature. Jesus was born of her but did not take sin from her - He was supernaturally born of the Spirit implanted in her.

Catholics say they do not worship her, but they pray to her and other saints. "There is only ONE mediator between God and man and that is JESUS CHRIST. That is what the Bible says. Satan causes us to pray to others so he can manipulate what is said to us. He is a deceiver and liar.

“Hail; Mary FULL of grace, the Lord is with you. BLESSED are you among women…” Our Lady was sinless, perfect and co-redeemer of the world. In the “poem of the Man-God” Jesus says that He could not have made it through Gethsemane had it not been for the prayer support of His mother !!! And so on.
Brian.

 

[Brian_Reeves]

Either you’re saying I don’t walk by faith.

Or you’re saying the Holy Spirit has not guided in interpreting His word?

Or you’re saying I don’t look for God.

Or you’re saying I’m a lost sheep?

Or all the above? I’m somewhat lost, please help me. Just say what you want to say. I can handle it, trust me.

Yes God is constantly looking for His lost sheep BUT He relies on them not struggling once He’s found them. They have to be resigned to having the crook around their neck and being led to safety. We do have complete freedom, but you make it sound as if God is automatically in complete control of our lives which I don’t believe is so. We have to surrender, mainly through prayer to His son Jesus, “The way the truth and the life”.
Brian