Apparitions of Mary

[BloodWashed]

Who says we NEED to go to Mary or the saints? The Catholic Church doesn’t. Rosaries aren’t compulsory, prayers to the saints aren’t compulsory.

It’s very much to our own advantage to pray to them, of course, just as it’s very much to your advantage to have others pray for you. For several reasons.

Firstly, as James says, ‘the prayers of a righteous man availeth much’, so the prayers of many righteous people praying together are powerful indeed!

Secondly, as Our Lord said ‘where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them’. The two or three can be you and me, it can also be me and Mary or me and Joseph, Peter, Mary Magdalene - being in heaven they are surely righteous, whereas with someone who’s still alive, no matter how good, you can never be 100% certain

Show me a scripture that speaks of fellowshipping with the dead.

There isn’t one. You can’t fellowship with the dead, because you don’t know whether they went to heaven or to hell. All the scriptures about having others pray for you are about living people, not dead people. The Jews never prayed to Abraham, or David.

 

[LilyM]

Show me a scripture that speaks of fellowshipping with the dead.

There isn’t one. You can’t fellowship with the dead, because you don’t know whether they went to heaven or to hell. All the scriptures about having others pray for you are about living people, not dead people. The Jews never prayed to Abraham, or David.

Show me a scripture that says that ANYONE is dead who lives in Christ. On the contrary - ‘he who believes in me will never die’, not to mention the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob being a God of the living and not the dead.

By definition then Abraham Isaac and Jacob are living. Since they are living we are every bit as able to pray to (fellowship with) them as people were when they were on earth.

To be sure the Jews didn’t pray to the departed, but then they didn’t trim their beards, eat pork or shellfish, wear clothing made of more than one fibre, or for that matter pray to Jesus either. I don’t think they’re necessarily the best example in such matters!

I think ‘there are many rooms in my Father’s house … I go to prepare a place for you’ is a pretty good indication of the eternal destination of the Apostles who heard this, no? What about ‘this day you will be with me in Paradise’, eh?

If you prefer, you can just pray to ‘the heavenly saints’ as a group, of course, if you’re so scrupulous about naming individuals!

 

[dolphinlove]

Show me a scripture that speaks of fellowshipping with the dead.

There isn’t one. You can’t fellowship with the dead, because you don’t know whether they went to heaven or to hell. All the scriptures about having others pray for you are about living people, not dead people. The Jews never prayed to Abraham, or David.

Meaning of intercession:

1. an act or instance of interceding.
2. an interposing or pleading on behalf of another person.
3. a prayer to God on behalf of another.

I dont see any meaning there that says your praying directly to that person for help, its asking that person to pray FOR you on your behalf to God

 

[DCD]

John could hear the prayers, but he didn’t know who each one was coming from and was not able to handle them specifically. Only God is omniscient and omnipotent like that. There is one God and ONE mediator between man and God.

And as for mother of God, it is because Mary is not the mother of God. She was the mother of Jesus’ fleshly body. Jesus created Mary long before Mary’s parents were even thought of. The term mother means she begat the child. Mary didnt beget God, God created Mary.

History does not agree with you. And this disbelief in Mary not being the Mother of God is a tradition of men and is rather a new invention of men.

Peace,
DCD

 

[peary]

Maybe she didn’t appear to Lenin or Trotsky because they would dismiss her as the devil.

Lenin and Trotsky were atheists, by the way.

 

[Eschato]

Originally Posted by Eschato
*]

An encyclical is a formal letter to the Church and the world from the pope. What you are referring to is a ‘magazine’.*

It is also a letter intended for a widespread audience.

 

[Eschato]

But from a Baptist’s point of view, Satan would have an apparation which encouraged works salvation and devotion to Mary.

But that is the lie. That is where satan does his work. In the minds of the unfaithful. Why should a Catholic have to rationalize a miracle with someone that just doesn’t believe?

 

[Eschato]

If 7,000,000 on the planet were all praying the Hail Mary at the same time, would Mary be able to hear all of the (spoken aloud or just thought to onself), and recognize each praying individual?

Also, Gabriel did not call her Holy Mary or Mother of God, because either of these titles would be heresy

To answer the first, Catholics don’t don’t put limitations on the power of God. If God wills that someone experience something, then God will make it happen.

To answer the second, how is Holy Mary or Mother of God heresy? You could only make that claim if you were a heretic.

 

[Insight]

How many children has Mary ‘appeared’ to over the course of 2,000 years? In the most noted and approved apparitions:

Fatima, Portugal (1917): 3 children
Lourdes (1858): 1child
La Salette (1846): 2 children
Kibeho, Rwanda (1981-88): 2 teenagers, 1 adult

Non-approved apparitions:

Garabandal, Spain (1961-65): 4 children
Medjugorje, Bosnia-Hercegovina (1981-) 6 children

“Unless you become as little children, you cannot enter the Kingdom” (Matt. 18:3)

"Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” (Luke 18:15-17)

I would think this has much to do with the purity and innocence of their souls. Possibly a requirement for such Divine contact. It also bears increased credibility when these children bear witness to information beyond their learning.

 

[Insight]

God isn’t the only one who can perform miracles. When God was plaguing Egypt, the pharoah’s magicians were able to reproduce many of God’s miracles through the power of the devil. I think it’s possible that some of these apparations are the work of the god of this world.

God doesn’t allow that to float too long, Moses’ rod that turned into a snake, a few moments later swallowed up all the magicians snakes and became a rod again. That is why I tend to think Medjugorje might be authentic, I can’t imaging God allowing something of the devil assuming the appearance of his Mom for almost 30 years.

 

[Delta2]

… I’m especially fascinated by the Fatima miracle…Roanoker

That was the miracle of the miracles of our Mother of God

for several reasons :

• prediction of War World II
• miracle of the sun, with thousands of witnesses

and what is more incredible is :

• the prediction of Russia conversion (communism)

Why ?

Because communism was a kind of religion
Because the name FATIMA came from a Portuguese Village

FATIMA is the name of Muhammad most loved daughter from islam

And all, and I mean all, muslims love our mother of God

There is a plan to the future, the miracles of Fatima will go on

 

[honeysuckle]

God doesn’t allow that to float too long, Moses’ rod that turned into a snake, a few moments later swallowed up all the magicians snakes and became a rod again. That is why I tend to think Medjugorje might be authentic, I can’t imaging God allowing something of the devil assuming the appearance of his Mom for almost 30 years.

It’s interesting because I have the opposite intuitive sense about the length of time the apparitions have been appearing. There is danger in seeking experiences and miracles, which includes seeking messages. They begin to supplant the resources we are given as day to day nourishment by the Church (Eucharist, prayer, scripture), and the constant engagement reminds me very, very, much of new age divination practices that I was lost in before becoming Catholic.

 

[Insight]

Hi Honeysuckle,

Yes there is a danger in miracle seeking, but not in God communicating with His people and supporting these Divine communications with Miracles.

There are aspects to the Fatima Miracle that demonstrate that it could not have been a hallucination. It was witnessed by nearly 100,000 people, even as far as 32 miles away. This includes disbelievers who refused to go to the cove, some of which that had even ridiculed those going as they passed by.

It was not just visual, not only did they see the fire of the sun detach itself and fall upon the earth, they felt the intense heat.

There was a physical aspect. The cove is a large depression, valley or crater, likely caused by a meteor millions of years ago. Just prior to the Miracle, there was a torrential rain that caused flooding. The swamped grounds and their soaked clothes dried up immediately before their eyes. Some were up to their ankles in mud, then standing upon dry soil.

Below is a link to Mp3 audio by John Haffert, the founder of the Blue Army. He authored many books, one was “Fatima: “Meet the Witnesses”, where he interviewed nearly 50 witnesses to the Fatima Miracle.

001A Fatima

God Bless

 

[honeysuckle]

Hi Honeysuckle,

Yes there is a danger in miracle seeking, but not in God communicating with His people and supporting these Divine communications with Miracles.

There are aspects to the Fatima Miracle that demonstrate that it could not have been a hallucination. It was witnessed by nearly 100,000 people, even as far as 32 miles away. This includes disbelievers who refused to go to the cove, some of which that had even ridiculed those going as they passed by.

It was not just visual, not only did they see the fire of the sun detach itself and fall upon the earth, they felt the intense heat.

There was a physical aspect. The cove is a large depression, valley or crater, likely caused by a meteor millions of years ago. Just prior to the Miracle, there was a torrential rain that caused flooding. The swamped grounds and their soaked clothes dried up immediately before their eyes. Some were up to their ankles in mud, then standing upon dry soil.

Below is a link to Mp3 audio by John Haffert, the founder of the Blue Army. He authored many books, one was “Fatima: “Meet the Witnesses”, where he interviewed nearly 50 witnesses to the Fatima Miracle.

001A Fatima

God Bless

This is just my own personal reaction to the non-stop communication. I do not doubt that either Mejudore or Fatima actually happened at all. As a Catholic, I am trusting in the Church’s inquiry into the apparitions and will accept what the Church has accepted, which is is a position I’ve grown into during my conversion.

The issue with the communication is really with the communication itself, which cannot be separated from miracle seeking. In my own mind, I see this as very similar to the spiritual practices of consulting one’s spiritual guide (or wisdom) through tarot or i-ching that I observed when I was a part of this darkness.

Those who do this would argue that “God” is communicating messages to them, and there is nothing wrong with it. But I think the whole point is that we are here on earth where God is invisible to us for a reason- and that is to grow in faith and love. God has given us everything we need without anything miraculous occurring (and without special messages). It is more difficult to reach God through prayer and worship and reading the Bible than it is to listen to direct message from an apparition, but that’s what causes us to grow spiritually. The constant messages very subtly detract from the need to reach God through faith without anything supernatural (other than grace) occurring around us.

This is just my perspective, and I am not an expert on these
apparitions by any means, so I don’t claim to be absolutely right, but I do obey the Church on this and do not participate in what is going on there because the apparition is unapproved.

 

[peary]

*Originally Posted by **BloodWashed **
John could hear the prayers, but he didn’t know who each one was coming from and was not able to handle them specifically. Only God is omniscient and omnipotent like that. There is one God and ONE mediator between man and God.

And as for mother of God, it is because Mary is not the mother of God. She was the mother of Jesus’ fleshly body. Jesus created Mary long before Mary’s parents were even thought of. The term mother means she begat the child. Mary didnt beget God, God created Mary.*

That was resolved almost two-thousand years ago - you CANNOT separate Jesus into human and divine because BOTH natures were integrated and were ONE. And, as Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, and that is the nature of God Who came in the flesh for our salvation, then it is right to call Mary “the God-bearer” (in the East, as they refer to her) or “Mother of God” (in the West, as we refer to her). Jesus is TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN. His nature cannot be separated because of His resurrection.

 

[peary]

It is also a letter intended for a widespread audience.

GARABANDAL Magazine is exactly that - a magazine, not an encyclical from the pope.

 

[SongofShepherds]

I could not get this answered anywhere, I’ve search blogs and I am earnest, I’ve read about 5 books on Fatima including Sister Lucia’s memoirs and I’ve seen 2 movies on it. I think they even showed us the 1952 movie once in Catholic School. The books I have seen have the pictures of the Portuguese newspapers headlines after the day of the Miracle of the Sun. I’ve been to all night First Friday vigils, I have helped carry the pilgrim statue. I’ve also been to Father Robt. Fox’s Mid-America Fatima Shrine in South Dakota where an annual Marian convention occurs and would love to check out the Blue Army Shrine in New Jersey. And I think, significantly, the life of Pope John Paul II was spared on that Fatima feastday, maybe it was May 13th.

But one thing I am unsure of at times, is when the seers and that is as children, Lucia and I believe are currently both Blessed Jacinta and Blessed Francisco actually relayed the message, say, that Russia would spread her errors around the world. We can say they said it in 1917, the year of the apparitions if I am not mistaken but it seems a Catholic living back then would not have known the substance of that message until after the Russian revolution. And I think this was told to the public in 1923 or possibly even 1930. I’m using figures to the best of my recollection.

There is also a question about when the “great sign in the sky” happened that warned of the next war, World War II (the actual message goes some;thing like "when you see a great sign in the sky, you will know that another worst war is about to occur). This is purported to have happened in by two sources, early 1938 or early 1939. With that I find no fault, I just figure the writers might get confused too, because it seems this did happen. The sky was colored red by one account or others might say it was like an Aurora Buorealis that was abnormally bigger than usual seen by all/most of Europe. But I believe this “great sign in the sky” was a subsequent message to Sister Lucia (some time after 1917) and then, that was not really given to the public again, until about 1940. Now, I am not all that positive about my research. This is a confusing issue.

I’ve mentioned this before and the other guy said, “you must not understand Fatima”, no, I think I do. And I’m not making anything serious out of this. I just wonder what the exact timeline is. It would seem to involve when the Seers had the apparitions, received the messages and then when the messages were relayed to the world. In the case of Russia, one might wonder if we find out “after the fact” though maybe we would not have known what a threat Russia and Communism was to the world otoh.

Adding to the confusion is that I do understand, the Church needs to investigate the worthiness of apparitions. This is clear. So, I think, actually, Fatima did not become a recognized apparition until around 1930.

It makes me wonder when we find these things out and it appears “after the fact.” But I’ve been into Fatima reading and research, I haven’t gone for financial reasons and I’m only looking at it objectively. I haven’t been able to come across an expert who understands this and forgive me if this is complex. One must know a lot about the apparitions to understand this and I’ve wondered about this for years.

I would appreciate any response or (name removed by moderator)ut on this because I will keep on wondering!

 

[LilyM]

I could not get this answered anywhere, I’ve search blogs and I am earnest, I’ve read about 5 books on Fatima including Sister Lucia’s memoirs and I’ve seen 2 movies on it. I think they even showed us the 1952 movie once in Catholic School. The books I have seen have the pictures of the Portuguese newspapers headlines after the day of the Miracle of the Sun. I’ve been to all night First Friday vigils, I have helped carry the pilgrim statue. And I think, significantly, the life of Pope John Paul II was spared on that Fatima feastday, maybe it was May 13th.

But one thing I am unsure of at times, is when the seers and that is as children, Lucia and I believe are currently both Blessed Jacinta and Blessed Francisco actually relayed the message, say, that Russia would spread her errors around the world. We can say they said it in 1917, the year of the apparitions if I am not mistaken but it seems a Catholic living back then would not have known the substance of that message until after the Russian revolution. And I think this was told to the public in 1923 or possibly even 1930. I’m using figures to the best of my recollection.

There is also a question about when the “great sign in the sky” happened that warned of the next war, World War II (the actual message goes some;thing like "when you see a great sign in the sky, you will know that another worst war is about to occur). This is purported to have happened in by two sources, early 1938 or early 1939. With that I find no fault, I just figure the writers might get confused too, because it seems this did happen. The sky was colored red by one account or others might say it was like an Aurora Buorealis that was abnormally bigger than usual seen by all/most of Europe. But I believe this “great sign in the sky” was a subsequent message to Sister Lucia (some time after 1917) and then, that was not really given to the public again, until about 1940. Now, I am not all that positive about my research. This is a confusing issue.

I’ve mentioned this before and the other guy said, “you must not understand Fatima”, no, I think I do. And I’m not making anything serious out of this. I just wonder what the exact timeline is. It would seem to involve when the Seers had the apparitions, received the messages and then when the messages were relayed to the world. In the case of Russia, one might wonder if we find out “after the fact” though maybe we would not have known what a threat Russia and Communism was to the world otoh.

Adding to the confusion is that I do understand, the Church needs to investigate the worthiness of apparitions. This is clear. So, I think, actually, Fatima did not become a recognized apparition until around 1930.

It makes me wonder when we find these things out and it appears “after the fact.” But I’ve been into Fatima reading and research, I haven’t gone for financial reasons and I’m only looking at it objectively. I haven’t been able to come across an expert who understands this and forgive me if this is complex. One must know a lot about the apparitions to understand this and I’ve wondered about this for years.

I would appreciate any response or (name removed by moderator)ut on this because I will keep on wondering!

Surely the idea of Russia ‘spreading its errors throughout the world’ wasn’t something that was accomplished during the Revolution only, or even the 1920s and 1930s, but rather continued well into the post-WWII period - arguably as late as 1968, when the USSR invaded Czechoslovakia, or even the 1980s when it attempted to invade Afghanistan. There’s no possible way of seeing the full extent of it until after the fact.

So I don’t think such things are even susceptible of having ‘official messages’ about them relayed throughout the world, although you may be right in that the warning about Russia in itself alerted the world to it.

 

[SongofShepherds]

Yes, thank you LilyM and to anyone else answering.

It wasn’t until I started going to some of these events: say the 8 hour (longer?) All night vigils for First Friday where there are breaks and there one can always buy all sorts of goodies, books, holy cards, Rosaries, pamphlets, devotionettes for First Friday, Scapulars, mostly all having to do with Fatima. I’d urge anyone to go to those. I really immersed myself in a lot of the literature on the subject mostly put out for sale by the Fatima World Apostolate/The Blue Army who I believe they were known as more of in the past. Those who haven’t been to these vigils, they entail 2 Masses, 8 PM and 5 AM, the complete Rosary, the Divine Mercy Chaplet, Stations of the Cross and carrying the Fatima statue around the Church. Forgive me for putting a little extra in; but at times, a breeze of wind, I don’t know, it is some atmosphere.

I think, we all know that Our Lady of Fatima said she was Our Lady of the Rosary I think…I repeat, but again, a Fatima expert would know, I think she also has a definite connection to Our Lady of Mount Carmel…which must in part be due to the Scapular. I think the Brown Scapular originated with her meaning Our Lady of Mount Carmel in Spain or maybe it was Italy. Interesting to contemplate and a lot of details.

Surely the idea of Russia ‘spreading its errors throughout the world’ wasn’t something that was accomplished during the Revolution only, or even the 1920s and 1930s, but rather continued well into the post-WWII period - arguably as late as 1968, when the USSR invaded Czechoslovakia, or even the 1980s when it attempted to invade Afghanistan. There’s no possible way of seeing the full extent of it until after the fact.

So I don’t think such things are even susceptible of having ‘official messages’ about them relayed throughout the world, although you may be right in that the warning about Russia in itself alerted the world to it.

 

[SongofShepherds]

I think God can lay on anything he wants if he thinks the individual concerned will respond appropriately. There would probably be little point in trying to communicate with an evangelical through an apparition of Mary, so he would use some alternative method of communicating with them.

I’m rereading this and late in the conversation but what has come to my attention, as Catholic Apologetics tells us is about the Catholic Church having tradition, that is in the Bible that the Church has traditions. I believe St. Paul wrote that. Everything therefore is not Sola Scriptura.

If anyone ever gets a chance to go into a Russian Orthodox Church and I would believe it is similar with the other Eastern Orthodox Church, go. Theotokos was so prominent in this humble little Church I visited and that is additionally to the Icons we all know of. This Church I visited had like a dominant Theotokos Icon like painting surrounding the altar, kind of like a mural.

That is the Eastern Church and if I am correct, St. Paul was prominent in setting up the Eastern Orthodox (also called Catholic ) sometimes I think. I would believe the Coptic/Middle Eastern Churches may share this too as I saw the Zeitoun apparition mentioned earlier.

I mean if Marianism and Mariology is a question to Protestants, why is Mary so prominent in the Eastern Orthodox Church too? One would have to know then what is was like in say, 300 AD and how it was in Greece and Italy. An interesting matter.