Appearently, Satan IS NOT a Fallen Angel:

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Usually when I’m debating with Muslims and the subject of Satan comes up, and I refer to him as the fallen angel, Lucifer, I get this sort of response:
“Satan is not a fallen angel! Angels do not have free minds like we do! Satan is a jinn! (ha, ha, ha, your religion didn’t teach you that.)” :rolleyes:
This gets sort of agravating. Especially when they ask me to “prove” that Satan is not a jinn, instead, he is a fallen angel like “I say.” Why should I have to prove Satan is a fallen angel? After all, that’s what he’s been depicted as since the beginning of the semitic religions! And why wouldn’t God allow angels to have ‘free minds’? Does God show favoritism? It has also come to my understanding that Muslims believe Mohammed is the “final prophet.” So doesn’t that mean there would have to been prophets before him? Like… Isaiah?:

“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!”
-Isaiah 14:12

It has also come to my understanding that Muslims believe that either, “some of the Bible is corrupt” or, “most of the Bible is corrupt.” ok… but why would any scribe twist specifically Isaiah 14:12 just to say Lucifer is a fallen angel? While we’re at it, why would any scribe, prophet, whoever, twist verses that specifically prophecy the death of the Messiah?:

“He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.”
-Isaiah 53:9

“After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed
One will be cut off and will have nothing.
The people of the ruler who will come
will destroy the city and the sanctuary.”
-Daniel 9:26

It is also important to remember that this is Jewish scripture, and when Jesus came, they rejected Him because they weren’t looking for a sacrafice, but rather a super king-David. A war hero. So there shouldn’t be any bias in these texts. I think it’s important Muslims specify which parts of the Bible are corrupt. Because I’m left to assume that the only parts they find “corrupt” are the parts that contradict their scripture.
I guess you could say, “the entire Bible is corrupt!” Ok, then I guess Islam loses alot of semitic history found in the Bible, since the Qu’ran doesn’t even meantion the covenant of Abraham and other stuff that’s pretty central to the Theology of the semitic religions.
 
Actually, Satan is not depicted as a fallen angel since the beginning of Semetic religions. Satan in Job, perhaps the earliest book of the Bible, depicts Satan as God’s agent to test humanity. It wasn’t until the return from the Exile that the idea of Satan as being a “evil” counterpart to God began making it’s inroad into Jewish thought. The Hebrews adopted the belief from their time in Persia under a Zorastrian king and religious influence.
 
I’ve also heard some argue that Lucifer is not the same entity as Satan to dodge passages like Isaiah 14. 🤷

Whenever you’re conversing with someone and they try to turn the tables around on you asking you to prove the negative of what they have asserted, it is generally a signal that they’re not really interested in anything you have to say. You might try asking them for their proof that Satan is a “jinn” (along with some sort of explanation as to what the difference is between a jinn and a fallen angel), but I doubt it would do much good.
 
Some interesting opinions…but lets see what the Catholic Church really teaches about Satan?..Catechism of Catholic Church (CCC):
**II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS **
391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”****.267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269** This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: **“You will be like God.”**270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.271
http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/393.htm');

393 It is the *irrevocable *character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. **“There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.”**272
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394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one** Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning”**, who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.273 "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.
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395 ** The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign.** Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. ** It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275**
Footnotes:
266 Cf. Gen 3:1-5; Wis 2:24.
267 Cf Jn 8:44; Rev 12:9.
268 Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 800.
269 Cf. 2 Pet 2:4.
270 Gen 3:5.
271 1 Jn 3:8; Jn 8:44.
272 St. John Damascene, De Fide orth. 2,4: PG 94,877.
273 Jn 8:44; cf. Mt 4:1-11.
274 1 Jn 3:8.
275 Rom 8:28.​
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For your consideration…
Pax Christi
 
I think you are getting to worked up about this. Muslims do not believe Satan was a fallen angel beause the Quran doesn’t say he is. Muslims take the Quran over the Bible. You aren’t going to convince them they are wrong if you both believe in different holy books.
 
Publisher said:
Actually, Satan is not depicted as a fallen angel since the beginning of Semetic religions. Satan in Job, perhaps the earliest book of the Bible, depicts Satan as God’s agent to test humanity. It wasn’t until the return from the Exile that the idea of Satan as being a “evil” counterpart to God began making it’s inroad into Jewish thought. The Hebrews adopted the belief from their time in Persia under a Zorastrian king and religious influence.
Click to expand...
Satan translates as “the accuser.” In the book of Job, Satan called God’s character into question, “Job only loves you because you put a hedge around him.” Insinuating that God needs to bribe His followers into loving Him. As though Job’s love was just a product of environment. And not authentic. What would be the point of pointing out that Satan came to the assembly if he’s usualy there as an angel, anyway?
Joe_5859 said:
I’ve also heard some argue that Lucifer is not the same entity as Satan to dodge passages like Isaiah 14. 🤷

Whenever you’re conversing with someone and they try to turn the tables around on you asking you to prove the negative of what they have asserted, it is generally a signal that they’re not really interested in anything you have to say. You might try asking them for their proof that Satan is a “jinn” (along with some sort of explanation as to what the difference is between a jinn and a fallen angel), but I doubt it would do much good.
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I would like to get to the root of where the idea of “jinn” started. :hmmm:
jfoges said:
I think you are getting to worked up about this. Muslims do not believe Satan was a fallen angel beause the Quran doesn’t say he is. Muslims take the Quran over the Bible. You aren’t going to convince them they are wrong if you both believe in different holy books.
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They claim to believe some of the Bible, none of the bible, only parts of the bible, eh… I’m left to assume the only parts they do believe are the parts that don’t contradict what their prophet wrote. 🤷
 
MrZetterlund said:
Satan translates as “the accuser.” In the book of Job, Satan called God’s character into question, “Job only loves you because you put a hedge around him.” Insinuating that God needs to bribe His followers into loving Him. As though Job’s love was just a product of environment. And not authentic. What would be the point of pointing out that Satan came to the assembly if he’s usualy there as an angel, anyway?

I would like to get to the root of where the idea of “jinn” started. :hmmm:

They claim to believe some of the Bible, none of the bible, only parts of the bible, eh… I’m left to assume the only parts they do believe are the parts that don’t contradict what their prophet wrote. 🤷
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For your review

muttaqun.com/jinn.html
 
MrZetterlund said:
Satan translates as “the accuser.” In the book of Job, Satan called God’s character into question, “Job only loves you because you put a hedge around him.” Insinuating that God needs to bribe His followers into loving Him. As though Job’s love was just a product of environment. And not authentic. What would be the point of pointing out that Satan came to the assembly if he’s usualy there as an angel, anyway?
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I believe that “the Satan” was one of God’s agents according to Job. He was not evil…he 'accused" humanity before God…in the case of the Book of Job, the writer used a character to afflict Job. The Book of Job is not about the character of the satan…but seeks to answer the question of why there is human suffering…the writer used the various dialogs of his characters to seek understanding of human suffering. Job most likely didn’t exist…this is a “parable” of sorts…not a factual account.
 
MrZetterlund said:
Usually when I’m debating with Muslims and the subject of Satan comes up, and I refer to him as the fallen angel, Lucifer, I get this sort of response:
“Satan is not a fallen angel! Angels do not have free minds like we do! Satan is a jinn! (ha, ha, ha, your religion didn’t teach you that.)” :rolleyes:
This gets sort of agravating. Especially when they ask me to “prove” that Satan is not a jinn, instead, he is a fallen angel like “I say.” Why should I have to prove Satan is a fallen angel? After all, that’s what he’s been depicted as since the beginning of the semitic religions! And why wouldn’t God allow angels to have ‘free minds’? Does God show favoritism? It has also come to my understanding that Muslims believe Mohammed is the “final prophet.” So doesn’t that mean there would have to been prophets before him? Like… Isaiah?:

“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!”
-Isaiah 14:12

It has also come to my understanding that Muslims believe that either, “some of the Bible is corrupt” or, “most of the Bible is corrupt.” ok… but why would any scribe twist specifically Isaiah 14:12 just to say Lucifer is a fallen angel? While we’re at it, why would any scribe, prophet, whoever, twist verses that specifically prophecy the death of the Messiah?:

“He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.”
-Isaiah 53:9

“After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed
One will be cut off and will have nothing.
The people of the ruler who will come
will destroy the city and the sanctuary.”
-Daniel 9:26

It is also important to remember that this is Jewish scripture, and when Jesus came, they rejected Him because they weren’t looking for a sacrafice, but rather a super king-David. A war hero. So there shouldn’t be any bias in these texts. I think it’s important Muslims specify which parts of the Bible are corrupt. Because I’m left to assume that the only parts they find “corrupt” are the parts that contradict their scripture.
I guess you could say, “the entire Bible is corrupt!” Ok, then I guess Islam loses alot of semitic history found in the Bible, since the Qu’ran doesn’t even meantion the covenant of Abraham and other stuff that’s pretty central to the Theology of the semitic religions.
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Angels do have free minds and intelligence much higher than ANY humans. God created them with free-will and yet some chose to rebel (Lucifer and his buddies). What is difficult to comprehend?
 
Indeed Muslims do not accept it because it is from a Christian tradition.
 
The exact interpretation of Satan in the Bible and being cast out of Heaven is in Isaiah from 14:12 on. But Satan appeared in the Bible from the point of Adam and Eve.

The Bible also tells us in 2nd Corinthians 4:4 Satan has become “the God of this World”.

And in Revelations 20:10 it is told he will be eternally punished for it.
 
Also though in Genisis 3:1 we only know of the Serpent in the story of Adam and Eve, we do know the Serpent talks. And once again the Serpent is referred to as Satan in Revelations 20:2 and 12:9 when the “old Serpent” is spoken of. This connects the two.

We could debate semantics till the cows come home. The bottom line is Satan of whatever you chose to call him is out enemy. And the Bible warns us throughout.
 
THis sounds sensible enough. Why do they teach that angels don’t have free will? Is there something about spiritual beings that makes that impossible?

What is the difference between a Jinn and an angel, from a Muslim perspective, and from our perspective?
 
Here is additional info concerning the Muslim view of angels:

Al-Qur’an, Chapter 74, Verses 27-36
And what will explain to thee what Hell-Fire is?
Naught doth it permit to endure, and naught doth it leave alone!-
Darkening and changing the colour of man!
Over it are Nineteen.
And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, “What symbol doth Allah intend by this?” Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind.
Nay, verily: By the Moon,
And by the Night as it retreateth,
And by the Dawn as it shineth forth,-
This is but one of the mighty (portents),
A warning to mankind,-

From what I understand, the general Christian view is that it is Satan who will be in charge of Hell, whereas the Qur’an completely contradicts this view by stating, as can be read above, that it is 19 angels who will be following Almighty God’s command to administer punishment to those among both humans and jinn who end up in the Hell-fire.

Since Satan does not follow the Lord’s command in this world and so is there a reason why God would appoint him to be in charge of administering punishment in the Hereafter?
 
hamba2han said:
Since Satan does not follow the Lord’s command in this world and so is there a reason why God would appoint him to be in charge of administering punishment in the Hereafter?
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where is the source for that?
 
MrZetterlund said:
Right-O. Thank you for this. 👍
Now all I must do is find where these ideas are aquired. :hmmm:
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As I understand it, the jinni are essentially the same beings that the graeco-roman world would have called ‘daemons’.

Daemons were mighty spirits who inhabited the natural world, but who also could move in the spiritual worlds. They were described as responsible for carrying human prayers and sacrifices from human ritual fires up to the gods, as well as inhabiting pools (as nymphs), forests and groves (as satyrs), mountains etc. Daemons sometimes also received direct worship, but were not considered to be on the same plane as the gods themselves. Later Hellenic discourse suggested that some daemons became ‘addicted’ to the sacrifices, and to human passions surrounding some of the wilder Pagan sects - this led to the idea of the existence of good and evil daemons, which fed directly into the Christian notion of angels and demons.

As far as I know, the arabic jinn derives from the latin ‘genius’. Genius is from roots meaning ‘family’ (like ‘genetics’) and referred to the guardian spirit of a family, which was seated in the Pater Familius. This was a special type of daemon, but the derivative word jinn in arabic vocabulary came to refer to the whole category of mighty ‘nature spirits’ who might aid or harm humans. I believe Islamic lore says that some of the Jinni became Muslim, submitting to Allah, while others remained rebellious. The basic notion of ‘shaitan’ in Islam is the jinn called Iblis, leader of the rebellious jinni.

So saying that satan isn’t a fallen angel is pretty much a distinction without a difference.
 
The Bible makes no referrence of “who” is in charge of Hell. What is does tell us is that the Devil will be cast into the Fire, and it will turn him to Ash. "Revelations 20:10.

If their is a passage in the Bible where it specifically states the Devil will be in charge of Hell then please post the passage. I’d like to read that.

I can’t speak on what the Quran says. I am not knowledgeable on the subject to any significant degree.

And Satan deserves no attention from anyone. That is what he craves be it good or bad. Rebuke him period. It doesn’t matter who rules Hell, but who Rules all. And that would be our God.

God Bless, Gary
 
Sam_777 said:
where is the source for that?
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This was a rhetorical question that I asked since it is obvious that it is absolutely illogical that Satan who vowed to disobey the Lord would be appointed in charge of administering punishment in the Hereafter.

And for everyone’s information, in Western societies, the jinn would be known as fairies, elves, leprechauns, spirits, ghosts, goblins and the like.

Angels were made from light whereas the jinn are creatures with free will, made from smokeless fire by God as humans were made of earth.

Angels, jinn and humans are therefore 3 completely different kinds of creations and so no one should mistake the jinn with either angels or humans.
 
The belief that Satan is a fallen angel goes all the way back to the beginings of Christianity. One can read the likes of Origen and Tertullian and find them linking the devil to the figures in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. There are also jewish writings such as the Life of Adam & Eve that identify Satan as a fallen angel.

In my humble opinion the angels of Islam are far inferior to the angels in Judaeo-Christian thought. The Islamic angels are nothing more than slaves to the will of an all powerful dictator and only love him because they cannot do otherwise. The angels of the Bible were given the freedom of choice because our God desires a relationship and a family. The holy angels serve Him because they genuinly love Him of their own choice.
 
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