Applying practicality to mortal sin

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OK… Comon topic here…vasectomy.

I am looking to try NFP. But I am having a hard time convincing my husband. I’m still trying. But sometimes a part of me would feel relieved if he had one. Here’s the most important reason, why I’m still debating this as a possibility.

If I’m wrong tell me, but it seems as though a mortal sin is a mortal sin. That (although beyond me) having an unconfessed abortion would be just likely to get you to hell as having unconfessed masturbation. With that said, if my husband has a vasectomy and we confess it… Basically no more sin after that, at least not in this area of sin. Whereas if we try NFP we could keep sinning all the time. I’m not trying to be smart, or play stump the CCC. I’m serious. I think if we practice NFP we will get nervous here and there, maybe suddenly decide to pull out or some other sin of the nature. Or perhaps deny the marital embrace when my husband wants to do it. (I thought someone said that was a sin too.) Or maybe through the frustration and anxiety of NFP, come some sin not of a sexual nature.

I know there are a lot of “maybes” and “perhaps” there. But I would seriously think if we practice NFP, we’d commit at least one sin (which equals the number of sins with a vasectomy). Not to mention the increased likelihood of being in a state mortal sin. I do go to confession often, but hey anyone can die in a fiery car crash before confession.

I know we’re not supposed to have a “v”. But I do look at the sins we’ll face without it…

Thanks for your help.
 
Without contrition there is no pardon.

So, yes, the intentional vasectomy is completely different than any *potential *sin that you *might *commit.

Choosing a vasectomy and having no remorse keeps you in mortal sin, as you cannot receive absolution without contrition.

Choosing it and planning to confess it and “be done” is false contrition and the additional sin of presumption.

Do what is pleasing to God-- follow his plan for marriage.
 
Let’s look at it in terms of your love relationship with God.

A vasectomy says to God, “I do not trust you to take care of me and my family, so I will do something permanent and practically irreversible to make certain that what I think I need, I will have.”

On the other hand, the decision to use NFP places you squarely in the hands of God for your welfare and protection. You tell Him, “It’s going to be difficult for us to do this, and we will be tempted, but, all in all, we trust you with our lives. We trust you to give us the strength to master ourselves. We trust you to forgive us and raise us up if we stumble. And we trust you to take care of us if we have a surprise pregnancy.”

Which is the more loving way to deal with your Father God? Ultimately, this decision is more about love than about accounting.

Betsy
 
baltobetsy said:
Let’s look at it in terms of your love relationship with God.

A vasectomy says to God, “I do not trust you to take care of me and my family, so I will do something permanent and practically irreversible to make certain that what I think I need, I will have.”

On the other hand, the decision to use NFP places you squarely in the hands of God for your welfare and protection. You tell Him, “It’s going to be difficult for us to do this, and we will be tempted, but, all in all, we trust you with our lives. We trust you to give us the strength to master ourselves. We trust you to forgive us and raise us up if we stumble. And we trust you to take care of us if we have a surprise pregnancy.”

Which is the more loving way to deal with your Father God? Ultimately, this decision is more about love than about accounting.

Betsy
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That’s a nice way to look at it. Thanks. I know we shouldn’t. So that gives me some good stuff to think about.
 
1ke said:
Without contrition there is no pardon.

So, yes, the intentional vasectomy is completely different than any *potential *sin that you *might *commit.

Choosing a vasectomy and having no remorse keeps you in mortal sin, as you cannot receive absolution without contrition.

Choosing it and planning to confess it and “be done” is false contrition and the additional sin of presumption.

Do what is pleasing to God-- follow his plan for marriage.
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Yes, I’d figure someone would bring this up. I know about presumption. But if you’re commiting mortal sin, isn’t it hard not to be guilty of presumption too? I mean we all learned early on if we go to confession we’ll be forgiven of our sins. And by definition, a mortal sin is knowingly and deliberately turning from God.

Also, who said we wouldn’t be remorseful? I’m remorseful now, not even knowing if we’ll have one. I don’t think that someone who is guilty of presumption is necessarily guilty of not being remorseful. It’s not simply a matter of “Oh well we’ll just get one and go to confession.” If I didn’t care or have doubt, would I bother to post this as a problem? I could understand why you’d get that impression from my first post, though.
 
jcoldc said:
OK… Comon topic here…vasectomy.

I am looking to try NFP. But I am having a hard time convincing my husband. I’m still trying. But sometimes a part of me would feel relieved if he had one. Here’s the most important reason, why I’m still debating this as a possibility.

If I’m wrong tell me, but it seems as though a mortal sin is a mortal sin. That (although beyond me) having an unconfessed abortion would be just likely to get you to hell as having unconfessed masturbation. With that said, if my husband has a vasectomy and we confess it… Basically no more sin after that, at least not in this area of sin. Whereas if we try NFP we could keep sinning all the time. I’m not trying to be smart, or play stump the CCC. I’m serious. I think if we practice NFP we will get nervous here and there, maybe suddenly decide to pull out or some other sin of the nature. Or perhaps deny the marital embrace when my husband wants to do it. (I thought someone said that was a sin too.) Or maybe through the frustration and anxiety of NFP, come some sin not of a sexual nature.

I know there are a lot of “maybes” and “perhaps” there. But I would seriously think if we practice NFP, we’d commit at least one sin (which equals the number of sins with a vasectomy). Not to mention the increased likelihood of being in a state mortal sin. I do go to confession often, but hey anyone can die in a fiery car crash before confession.

I know we’re not supposed to have a “v”. But I do look at the sins we’ll face without it…

Thanks for your help.
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That argument does pop up quite often for a variety of different sins. It’s problem is that to be truly sorry for something (which is required for forgiveness), you have to realize that not only was it wrong, but you actually would have been BETTER off not doing it! Once you have reached such a state, the dilemma of whether or not to go through with the sin, planning on simply confessing it later, disappears.

Augustine (or was it Aquinas?) spoke of the dangers of sinning now to prevent sin later; it is never a rational approach.
 
Danny_OC said:
That argument does pop up quite often for a variety of different sins. It’s problem is that to be truly sorry for something (which is required for forgiveness), you have to realize that not only was it wrong, but you actually would have been BETTER off not doing it! Once you have reached such a state, the dilemma of whether or not to go through with the sin, planning on simply confessing it later, disappears.

I like what you said here. But I’m curious where you heard that.

Augustine (or was it Aquinas?) spoke of the dangers of sinning now to prevent sin later; it is never a rational approach.

I’ve never heard that before. Do you remember anymore about what he said? Or why it isn’t rational? Or is it what you said above?
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To be honest. I am not completely sure that I won’t want another baby in a couple of years. I don’t think I will. But who knows? But I don’t think my husband feels the same way. I’ve read the Good News About Sex an Marriage. I thought it had some good points. My husband was willing enough to read it. (Good start). But he doesn’t seemed to be as moved.
 
jcoldc said:
To be honest. I am not completely sure that I won’t want another baby in a couple of years. I don’t think I will. But who knows? But I don’t think my husband feels the same way. I’ve read the Good News About Sex an Marriage. I thought it had some good points. My husband was willing enough to read it. (Good start). But he doesn’t seemed to be as moved.
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The first thing I said, I must admit I kind of made up myself; but I do believe it’s right as it isn’t much of an extrapolation from basic teaching. God’s laws are in our best interest. Being forgiven for a sin involves being sorry for it. Being sorry for a sin involves understanding the basis for God’s laws, and that they are in our best interest, not just tests of faith.

After looking through my copy of City of God, i see it was indeed Augustine that condemned sinning now to avoid sinning later. It’s also online:
newadvent.org/fathers/120101.htm (click there and scroll down to chapter 27). The situation is considered with the context of suicide, but can be applied more generally as well.

God bless. And remember, view children as hands to work and hearts to love, not mouths to feed! 🙂
 
That’s OK, DannyOC. IT still sounds good. And is something to think aobut.😃 Maybe you’re on your way to writing a book one day.

Thanks for the website. I appreciate it.
 
marca37 said:
Is the withdrawal method a sin if I used it with NFP?
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Yes. In order for sex not to be sinful it still has to be open to the possibility of life, even if it is during the non-fertile days of a woman’s cycle.

If you are familiar with the rules of NFP, there is no reason to withdraw since you’re either not fertile, you’re trying to conceive, or you’re abstaining on fertile days.
 
marca37 said:
Is the withdrawal method a sin if I used it with NFP?
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Yes, if by withdrawl you mean that you withdraw before ejaculating. Basically, the whatever happens before or during sex has to end with hubby climaxing in wifey.
 
jcoldc said:
OK… Comon topic here…vasectomy.

I am looking to try NFP. But I am having a hard time convincing my husband. I’m still trying. But sometimes a part of me would feel relieved if he had one. Here’s the most important reason, why I’m still debating this as a possibility.

If I’m wrong tell me, but it seems as though a mortal sin is a mortal sin. That (although beyond me) having an unconfessed abortion would be just likely to get you to hell as having unconfessed masturbation. With that said, if my husband has a vasectomy and we confess it… Basically no more sin after that, at least not in this area of sin. Whereas if we try NFP we could keep sinning all the time. I’m not trying to be smart, or play stump the CCC. I’m serious. I think if we practice NFP we will get nervous here and there, maybe suddenly decide to pull out or some other sin of the nature. Or perhaps deny the marital embrace when my husband wants to do it. (I thought someone said that was a sin too.) Or maybe through the frustration and anxiety of NFP, come some sin not of a sexual nature.

I know there are a lot of “maybes” and “perhaps” there. But I would seriously think if we practice NFP, we’d commit at least one sin (which equals the number of sins with a vasectomy). Not to mention the increased likelihood of being in a state mortal sin. I do go to confession often, but hey anyone can die in a fiery car crash before confession.

I know we’re not supposed to have a “v”. But I do look at the sins we’ll face without it…

Thanks for your help.
Click to expand...
This is just my first impression after reading your post, but your post really treats a vas very lightly. This is a surgical procedure that permanently disables your husband’s body and ends your natural fertility (although a small failure rate does exist). It has risks both during and after the procedure and it has a multitude of side effects, both physical and mental.

What sins are you assuming you will commit if you don’t disable his body? Are you referring to an abortion if you accidentally conceive? If you fear you will choose to abort your child, then the only method available is to abstain 100% because NFP, birth control, implants, tubals, vasectomies, withdrawal, etc have failure rates.

Are you referring to masturbating during the week or so of fertility while using NFP? Do you two normally engage in sexual intercourse every single day? I would browse the forum for the multitude of masturbation threads, because a vasectomy is definitely NOT a cure for masturbation.

Also, you mention reading Christopher West’s book. Have you read any of this other ones, such as the ones on purity and his commentary on the Theology of the Body? www.christopherwest.com His seminars are very inspiring as well.
 
hasikelee said:
This is just my first impression after reading your post, but your post really treats a vas very lightly. This is a surgical procedure that permanently disables your husband’s body and ends your natural fertility (although a small failure rate does exist). It has risks both during and after the procedure and it has a multitude of side effects, both physical and mental.

What sins are you assuming you will commit if you don’t disable his body? Are you referring to an abortion if you accidentally conceive? If you fear you will choose to abort your child, then the only method available is to abstain 100% because NFP, birth control, implants, tubals, vasectomies, withdrawal, etc have failure rates.

Are you referring to masturbating during the week or so of fertility while using NFP? Do you two normally engage in sexual intercourse every single day? I would browse the forum for the multitude of masturbation threads, because a vasectomy is definitely NOT a cure for masturbation.

Also, you mention reading Christopher West’s book. Have you read any of this other ones, such as the ones on purity and his commentary on the Theology of the Body? www.christopherwest.com His seminars are very inspiring as well.
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No I didn’t meanto give the impression that I take it lightly at all. In fact I said that I was looking to try NFP, but still had a consideration for the vasectomy my husband wants. If I took it lightly, he probably would have already had one, and I wouldn’t have bothered to post here.

No, abortion nor masturbation were the sins I was concerned about with NFP. My point using these examples, was that mortal sins don’t seem to be on a spectrum, if you will. Another example, gossip will get you a fast pass to hell as much as murder (unconfessed of course). Seems weird to me , but I don’t make the rules. So I was trying to say basically:

vasectomy = 1 sin
NFP = probability of many sins

While it is easy to know what the Church thinks. It can be a difficult decision. There is a lot of ramifications either way. Thank you all for the time you’ve put in to helping with this question. I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
jcoldc said:
No I didn’t meanto give the impression that I take it lightly at all. In fact I said that I was looking to try NFP, but still had a consideration for the vasectomy my husband wants. If I took it lightly, he probably would have already had one, and I wouldn’t have bothered to post here.

No, abortion nor masturbation were the sins I was concerned about with NFP. My point using these examples, was that mortal sins don’t seem to be on a spectrum, if you will. Another example, gossip will get you a fast pass to hell as much as murder (unconfessed of course). Seems weird to me , but I don’t make the rules. So I was trying to say basically:

vasectomy = 1 sin
NFP = probability of many sins

While it is easy to know what the Church thinks. It can be a difficult decision. There is a lot of ramifications either way. Thank you all for the time you’ve put in to helping with this question. I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.
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So what are the “probability of many sins”? I don’t understand the implication.
 
hasikelee said:
So what are the “probability of many sins”? I don’t understand the implication.
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Pulling out, refusing sex. (That is a sin to some degree right?) Remember my husband isn’t on board with NFP, at least not yet.
 
jcoldc said:
Pulling out, refusing sex. (That is a sin to some degree right?) Remember my husband isn’t on board with NFP, at least not yet.
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I don’t think refusing sex is a sin. Sex is a mutual giving and if you don’t want it, there’s nothing mutual or loving about one spouse insisting on it. One partner is being used by the other in that instance.

As far as pulling out goes, if you don’t agree to it, the sin is your husband’s, not yours.

I guess my question here is, why are you two so terrified of one of God’s greatest gifts to us - children?
 
You say that you are considering commiting this sin and then going to confession afterwards. If you do this, the sin will not be removed from your soul. You will also be guilty of presumption, as someone else has pointed out.

Since you have been considering commiting a mortal sin, you will not be truely repentant if you decide to follow through. If you were in the same situation later on, would you make the same choice? If the answer if “yes”, then you are not repentant.

The second issue is that you are considering commiting one mortal sin instead of the possibility of other mortal sins later on. The key work here is: possibility. No one can see the future. What if you were to have the operation and one of you died the next day? You would have sinned for nothing.

Alternatively, you could avoid sin whenever you see it and never commit these possible sins. What you are really afraid of here is temptation. If you do not think you can resist the temptation of future sins, you should work to build your conscience and your relationship to God.

Regardless of the situation, commiting a mortal sin is never the answer.
 
OK, I’ll keep on with the NFP. I could discuss more, but I think I’ll just talk to a priest. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut everyone.
 
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