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edwest2
Guest
I agree. You should start a thread for men. I can’t stand guys who think it’s cool to have their pants hang halfway down their butt - it’s gross and stupid.
Peace,
Ed
Peace,
Ed
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Since when has Catholicism been a Eurocentric religion?
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Hmm… it’s not bad either but I could do without the headgear. Most often, anybody in plate armor (be they male or female) looks a bit more majestic with their head exposed (not in battle mind you XD).
Unless of course you managed to make the helmet just as aesthetically appealing but I’m going off-topic now.
(On a side-note, I wonder if I should make a thread regarding modesty in fictional settings such as medieval fantasy?
)
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spunjalebi
Guest
Didn’t you know? The pagan cultures wear what they wear because it’s what is suitable to them, never mind the fact that many Catholics exist outside the realm of Canada, America, Europe, don’t have blonde hair, blue eyes, and light skin. After all, since Catholicism is mostly prevalent in the West, why should we care about what nonWesterners wear because clearly they don’t pertain to this particular conversation?
And never mind the fact that many posters here on this forum aren’t from Westernized cultures because since they aren’t the majority, their perspectives regarding appropriate clothing and modesty simply don’t count.
In fact-- anything I say probably doesn’t count either, seeing that I am from a non-Westernized culture that incorporates trouser-like clothes and they are considered modest and “female.” I guess all the Catholic guys who wear shirwani’s, kurta’s, and dhoti’s oughta know better. And what’s more ironic is that Scottish men are Westernized, but let me tell you those kilts of theirs are certainly asking for trouble.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
This.And what’s more ironic is that Scottish men are Westernized, but let me tell you those kilts of theirs are certainly asking for trouble.
This right here just pwned the whole thread.
Aye! Why didn’t I think o’ this? >.<;;
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spunjalebi
Guest
I think that’s so sad and so funny for someone to say “So what?”
Hey, so what if there are tons of Catholics out there who don’t prescribe to going to Walmart or Sears to buy clothes. We could care less about all the Catholics outside of the U.S., despite the fact that they probably think Westerners with their clothes are immoral and immodest.
But hey what do I know. I only was raised in two cultures.
Hey, so what if there are tons of Catholics out there who don’t prescribe to going to Walmart or Sears to buy clothes. We could care less about all the Catholics outside of the U.S., despite the fact that they probably think Westerners with their clothes are immoral and immodest.
But hey what do I know. I only was raised in two cultures.
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anilorak13ska
Guest
Not to get off topic, but I just wanted to point out that “Islamic” is used as an adjective describing things pertaining to the religion of Islam… Islamic poetry, Islamic culture, etc. “Muslim” is the term used to describe adherents of the religion. You would not be misrepresenting yourself as an Islamic, but rather as a Muslim (or more specifically, a Muslimah [female]). Just FYI
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Kouyate42
Guest
In some Catholic countries in the past, the wearing of the veil wasn’t up for debate- all women did it, regardless of age and marital status. It’s still the custom in some of these countries to wear veils in some form, from the tichels of the Israeli Christians (and Jews), to the mantilla of Spain and the habits and veils of most modern nuns.
I went to the Vatican last year and it was expected that any woman wore something on the head. I saw some quite imaginative headscarves as a result, including a beach towel.
I went to the Vatican last year and it was expected that any woman wore something on the head. I saw some quite imaginative headscarves as a result, including a beach towel.
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spunjalebi
Guest
Okay-- THAT was hilarious!
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Portrait
Guest
Dear Rebecca,
Cordial greetings and a very warm welcome to CAF.
When it comes to the issue of modesty in attire it is so very important that we Catholics think with an authentic Christian mind, otherwise we are likely to be influenced by the post-Christian mentality that is now so dominant in Western society. Moreover, our thinking will be seriously awry if we fail to reckon with fact and strength evil desire in our fallen world.
Your above point about modesty being the responsibility of both men and women is a jolly good one. Men and women must equally, if they profess religion, do their part to minimise the power of evil desire and counteract its evil effects. This will necessarily entail both sexes avoiding provocative clothing such as mini-skirts, low-cut tops revealing cleavage, tight-fitting garments that accentuate body parts and bikini’s (or just being scantily clad), as such garments, or lack of them, make their appeal to the baser instincts. Undeniably, men do have a responsibility for the custody of their eyes (cf. Job 31: 1and confirmed by the teaching of our Lord in the Gospel, St. Matt. 5: 28). Clearly, the enflaming of the imagination can be the result of the indiscipline of the eyes (in both sexes). However, a woman has a duty, given the fact of evil desire, to so dress as not to cause temptation in the opposite sex and possibly be the occasion of mortal sin. Dressing in a decorous manner with due consideration for others is surely an act of charity, in addition to being a duty, for both men and women.
When men or women don seductive style apparel they are inviting others to view them as an assemblege of body parts rather than people with personalities. Immodest attire in both sexes distracts from our personhood, with the result that we engage less with personality and more with body parts. In short, men and women become objectified and, at length, loose mutual respect for one another. Indeed, it is the disordered fixation with body parts that has led to the increasing sexualisation of Western culture and the prevalent decadence which is a very lamentable feature of it.
Therefore both men and woman ought to wear modest attire and eshew any garments that voluptuously expose the body to the gaze of others. It is a two-way affair, rather than a ‘sexist’ one way, which seeks to place the onus entirely upon men for keeping lascivious thoughts at bay.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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Soldier_Of_God
Guest
As a man, it behooves me to alway dress in a respectful and mature tone. It’s not for others in the Church I dress for but out of the deference for God. If that is your approach to your attire, then I would wager you are dressing appropriately.
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InquisitorMax
Guest
This is a Roman Catholicism sub-forum, so it is Western by definition.
A simple rule for modesty in men and women: are you trying to arouse lust in the oppositie sex and envy in your own? Yes? Then maybe dress differently for Mass.
Outside Mass: well, married women who dress sexily; what are they saying? Unmarried women: if you want to snare a husband don’t give the goods away before the contract is signed.
I’m old enough to be bored and irritated by all the noise on TV about the mess women make of their lives by ‘serial monogamous relationships’.
Whereas a clever girl dresses modestly but interestingly, goes to places where there are high-calibre men and waits for Mr. Right to make an offer of marriage. With a bit of prodding. I think women who don’t give themselves away these days would drive most men crazy, assuming they’re good looking at all. It’s so unusual and ‘we want what we can’t have’.
Tip: I find you get what you want eventually if you’re not obsessed about it all the time. Set up the circumstances for happy (Divine) ‘accidents’ to occur.
A simple rule for modesty in men and women: are you trying to arouse lust in the oppositie sex and envy in your own? Yes? Then maybe dress differently for Mass.
Outside Mass: well, married women who dress sexily; what are they saying? Unmarried women: if you want to snare a husband don’t give the goods away before the contract is signed.
I’m old enough to be bored and irritated by all the noise on TV about the mess women make of their lives by ‘serial monogamous relationships’.
Whereas a clever girl dresses modestly but interestingly, goes to places where there are high-calibre men and waits for Mr. Right to make an offer of marriage. With a bit of prodding. I think women who don’t give themselves away these days would drive most men crazy, assuming they’re good looking at all. It’s so unusual and ‘we want what we can’t have’.
Tip: I find you get what you want eventually if you’re not obsessed about it all the time. Set up the circumstances for happy (Divine) ‘accidents’ to occur.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
I thought the term “Catholicism” itself was a derivation from a word that meant “universal”?
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JHow
Guest
After reading several of these “modesty in dress” threads, I think we have to conclude that to a large extent actual standards for modesty (short of actual nudity) are not universal and largely cultural. If your local culture is used to women wearing head coverings in church, for example, then wear a head covering. If all the men wear short-sleeve hawaiian shirts to mass in your culture, then that works too. It is where different cultures butt up against each other that conflict occurs. I think the first step to getting along is recognize when running into others that our standards may not apply to the other guy’s culture, and secondly, to consider the impact of what we are doing on others whose cultural norms may be exceeded. So (if I may borrow from the Beach Boys) the guy wearing his baggies and huarache sandals might want to consider the impact of his dress on the “squares” in the next row. The squares might want to consider that the beach boy really is from a different culture. This recognition is important because it takes the focus of conflict away from seeing just an individual bad apple who doesn’t know how to dress properly. It also suggests that if one wants to change dress standards to be more in line with one’s own standards, the process will be through acculturation - a major, and likely long-term project.
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spunjalebi
Guest
Of course acculturation and to some extent, assimilation is important when it comes to modesty issues.
I find that the culture conflicts occur when someone tells a woman who dresses in her cultural outfit, goes to church, and then is told that her outfit was immodest because it’s not Western clothing. Yet, her outfit could be covering more and look more tasteful than someone else wearing a skirt and a blouse.
Take saris for instance. In India, it may not be immodest to show a bit of midriff but in our culture it wouldn’t be appropriate in church. The sensible thing to do would be to adjust the sari so the midriff doesn’t show. Simple as that.
But equating western dress clothes= modesty is a far stretch.
I find that the culture conflicts occur when someone tells a woman who dresses in her cultural outfit, goes to church, and then is told that her outfit was immodest because it’s not Western clothing. Yet, her outfit could be covering more and look more tasteful than someone else wearing a skirt and a blouse.
Take saris for instance. In India, it may not be immodest to show a bit of midriff but in our culture it wouldn’t be appropriate in church. The sensible thing to do would be to adjust the sari so the midriff doesn’t show. Simple as that.
But equating western dress clothes= modesty is a far stretch.
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JHow
Guest
Good example.
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InquisitorMax
Guest
Trad. forum tactic #1: Exaggerate your opponent’s position: e.g. “Are you saying we must saw off our legs to be saved???” Opponent wastes time and energy either defending a position he doesn’t actually hold or re-iterating it.
Ecu-maniac tactic #1: Efface your own culture trying to please others.
I mean, someone even suggested on here Roman Catholics should call themselves ‘Latin Catholics’, so as to better relate to Protestants, or something.
Rome. In the West. Western Culture. Get used to it.
Ecu-maniac tactic #1: Efface your own culture trying to please others.
I mean, someone even suggested on here Roman Catholics should call themselves ‘Latin Catholics’, so as to better relate to Protestants, or something.
Rome. In the West. Western Culture. Get used to it.
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InquisitorMax
Guest
If they’re not very careful, many Catholics in many countries will get exactly what they want: A nationalist, ‘inculturated’, Spirit of Vat. II church only notionally tied to Rome.
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JHow
Guest
I live on the western edge of my continent, and I have a sense that our standards of dress at mass probably don’t meet with a lot of people’s approval. I’m only half-joking about the Hawaiian shirts, and it’s not the youth, either.
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odile53
Guest
I couldn’t believe this happening this evening at a weekday Mass.
I recently (maybe six months ago or so) started attending a Tridentine Mass about once a month, and, since I felt vaguely uncomfortable there without some sort of head covering, bought a shortish mantilla and started wearing it to the Tridentine Mass in the city. I live in farm country, and my regular parish is NO. Even the Latino wives of farmworkers don’t wear veils/mantillas/headcoverings at that parish.
Over Lent, I started attending Mass in the city after work (different parish, run by priests of an order, I won’t say which one.) NO, but very reverent. Plus Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament is ongoing, from about 10 AM till the 5:15 PM weekday Mass, which seems to be attended by other downtown office workers as well as a smattering of regular parishioners plus a few homeless people. I can make it to Exposition by about 4:30 PM and stay for Mass. I ran across this church quite by accident while stuck in traffic during the first week of Lent, and decided to stop in. Not very spiritual, I know, but now I feel cheated if I can’t get there at least a couple of times a week. Hand of God? I don’t know.
For some reason I found that I had left my shortish mantilla on the passenger’s seat, and for whatever reason, decided to wear it to Exposition and Mass. There were a couple of other women wearing veils there as well.
But here’s the real kicker–a couple of young men were literally eyeballing me! Nothing particularly alluring about my clothing–it’s windy and chilly, I was wearing a long trenchcoat over a pair of fairly wide-legged trousers and a cowlneck sweater. Pretty nondescript. Plus, I’m in my fifties! Sorry, folks, but if you live in the chilly Northeast, you wear what Mom used to call “slacks.” Or freeze. Since I don’t happen to like either pneumonia or aching muscles, I opt for the heavy wool slacks (and yes, they are an item of clothing for men–I got them out of the LL Bean hunting catalog, nice, warm, heavy wool. I could sit in a snowbank wearing them.)
To the best of my knowledge, such a thing has never happened in church before. Don’t know if it was the shortish mantilla worn over hair confined in a ballerina bun. But honestly, it gave me the creeps! If that’s what wearing a mantilla anyplace but an EF Mass does, that thing is staying right in my car!
I recently (maybe six months ago or so) started attending a Tridentine Mass about once a month, and, since I felt vaguely uncomfortable there without some sort of head covering, bought a shortish mantilla and started wearing it to the Tridentine Mass in the city. I live in farm country, and my regular parish is NO. Even the Latino wives of farmworkers don’t wear veils/mantillas/headcoverings at that parish.
Over Lent, I started attending Mass in the city after work (different parish, run by priests of an order, I won’t say which one.) NO, but very reverent. Plus Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament is ongoing, from about 10 AM till the 5:15 PM weekday Mass, which seems to be attended by other downtown office workers as well as a smattering of regular parishioners plus a few homeless people. I can make it to Exposition by about 4:30 PM and stay for Mass. I ran across this church quite by accident while stuck in traffic during the first week of Lent, and decided to stop in. Not very spiritual, I know, but now I feel cheated if I can’t get there at least a couple of times a week. Hand of God? I don’t know.
For some reason I found that I had left my shortish mantilla on the passenger’s seat, and for whatever reason, decided to wear it to Exposition and Mass. There were a couple of other women wearing veils there as well.
But here’s the real kicker–a couple of young men were literally eyeballing me! Nothing particularly alluring about my clothing–it’s windy and chilly, I was wearing a long trenchcoat over a pair of fairly wide-legged trousers and a cowlneck sweater. Pretty nondescript. Plus, I’m in my fifties! Sorry, folks, but if you live in the chilly Northeast, you wear what Mom used to call “slacks.” Or freeze. Since I don’t happen to like either pneumonia or aching muscles, I opt for the heavy wool slacks (and yes, they are an item of clothing for men–I got them out of the LL Bean hunting catalog, nice, warm, heavy wool. I could sit in a snowbank wearing them.)
To the best of my knowledge, such a thing has never happened in church before. Don’t know if it was the shortish mantilla worn over hair confined in a ballerina bun. But honestly, it gave me the creeps! If that’s what wearing a mantilla anyplace but an EF Mass does, that thing is staying right in my car!
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