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Goya
Guest
Follow up on my prior posts re. Medjugorje–commentary by Dr. Mark Miravalle:
I remember reading otherwise, a few years back. I apologize for causing any confusion.
medjugorje.org/ismedjugorjereal.htm
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medjugorje.org/ismedjugorjereal.htm
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Goya
Guest
I got that from a book entitled “Why Do Catholics Do That?”, by Kevin Orlin Johnson, Ph.D. I didn’t cite it when I posted because I was posting from a public locale and didn’t have the book with me. That’s how I understand it, and I don’t think it necessarily conflicts with a declaration of ‘worthy of belief’.I’m sorry but I don’t understand what you mean by ’negatively approved’. Either it’s Worthy of Belief , or stated as 'Nothing Supernatural occurring, or sometimes even condemned. like Bayside NY was. Many of them just fizzle out on their own.
A book well worth reading is “A Still, Small, Voice.” by Fr. Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R. Available thru EWTNreligious store. Maybe even thru CAF library. God Bless, Memaw
e.g.–here is the bishop of the local diocese concerning Akita, Japan apparitions:
April 22, 1984 - Pastoral Letter of Bishop John Shojiro Ito declaring the events of Akita, Japan to be of supernatural origin
APRIL, 1984 – Most. Rev. John Shojiro Ito, Bishop of Niigata, Japan, after years of extensive investigation, declares the events of Akita, Japan to be of supernatural origin, and authorizes throughout the entire diocese the veneration of the Holy Mother of Akita.
On April 22, 1984, after eight years of investigations, after consultation with the Holy See, the messages of Our Lady of Akita were approved by the Bishop of the diocese. In the Japanese village of Akita, a statue of the Madonna, according to the testimony of more than 500 Christians and non-Christians, including the Buddhist mayor of the town, has shed blood, sweat and tears. A nun, Agnes Katsuko Sasagawa has received the stigmata and has received messages from Our Lady.
After long prayer and mature reflection, I hand down the following conclusions in my position as Bishop of Niigata:
- After the investigation conducted up to the present day, I recognize the supernatural character of a series of mysterious events concerning the statue of the Holy Mother Mary which is found in the convent of the Institute of the Handmaids of the Sacred Heart of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist at Yuzawadai, Soegawa, Akita.
I do not find in these events any elements which are contrary to Catholic faith and morals.
- Consequently, I authorize, throughout the entire diocese, the veneration of the Holy Mother of Akita, while awaiting that the Holy See publishes definitive judgment on this matter.
And I ask that it be remembered that even if the Holy See later publishes a favorable judgment with regard to the events of Akita, it is a question only of a private Divine revelation. Christians are bound to believe only content of public Divine revelation (closed after the death of the last Apostle) which contains all that is necessary for salvation. Nevertheless, the Church, until now, has equally made much of private Divine revelations as they fortify the faith. For reference, I cite the following texts of the document on Catholic Doctrine:
“The saints and the angels, having been conformed to the Will of God receive from Him grace and glory in abundance and it is right to venerate them because this amounts to offering praise and thanksgiving to God Himself. Among the saints the Virgin Mary deserves a special veneration. Indeed, She is not only the Mother of Our Savior who is God, but also the Mother of us all, and it is as Mother that She intercedes for us, full of Divine grace greater than those received by all the saints and angels.” (Article 72)
“One venerates the statues and images of Christ and of the saints to sustain the faith, to adore Christ, to venerate the saints. This act thus becomes praise to God.” (Article 170)
Finally, I beg God that He accord to you all abundant graces, and I send my Apostolic blessings.
Niigata, Feast of Easter
April 22, 1984
John Shojiro Ito, Bishop
G
Goya
Guest
Note the commentary at the very end (which I didn’t emphasize)–it summarizes very well, imo, the context in which the veneration should be taken.
Now, as to the part that was emphasized (bold/underlined etc), note that the declaration is that the events are of 'supernatural character’–that means that no natural explanation can be found to explain it away.
That falls within ‘negative approval’. To illustrate by counter example, an ‘affirmative’ declaration of approval would likely read more along the lines of:
“…I hereby conclude that the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared exactly as the visionary/ies claimed”.
IMO, ‘Worthy of Belief’ doesn’t negate this. If:
(…and again, this is just my (one humble poster’s/believer’s) understanding. I’m not claiming authority).
Now, as to the part that was emphasized (bold/underlined etc), note that the declaration is that the events are of 'supernatural character’–that means that no natural explanation can be found to explain it away.
That falls within ‘negative approval’. To illustrate by counter example, an ‘affirmative’ declaration of approval would likely read more along the lines of:
“…I hereby conclude that the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared exactly as the visionary/ies claimed”.
IMO, ‘Worthy of Belief’ doesn’t negate this. If:
- Nothing represented is contrary to Catholic teaching;
- The message is consistent with, and even beneficial to/fostering Catholic Faith; and
- It is determined to be ‘super natural’, at least in so far as nothing can be explained within the natural realm–
(…and again, this is just my (one humble poster’s/believer’s) understanding. I’m not claiming authority).
G
Goya
Guest
One final add-on—a nice little summary of the procedure for ‘approval’ of Apparitions:
Full Church Approval of any Private Revelation or Apparitions generally passes through 4 stages:
Code:After a ***thorough evaluation by a commission created by the local diocese***, the bishop issues a statement of support for the event by stating that it contains ***nothing contrary to faith or morals***, that it appears to be ***supernaturally inspired*** and that it is worthy of devotion by the faithful. ****(see example above, re Akita, Japan)****
Code:Once approved by the bishop, ***a lengthy period of devotion by the faithful that results in a deepening of their faith*** and a return to a life of self-denial and prayer is permitted to develop. If this devotion develops and spreads, then the next stage becomes possible.
*** Papal acknowledgement***. The Pope states publicly that he is favorably disposed to the events and contents of the apparition.
Code:Liturgical recognition by placing celebration of the apparition on the Church's official liturgical calendar.
NOTE: Papal 'acknowledgement… that he is ‘favorably disposed’…does not amount to a Papal decree, or ex-cathedra declaration as to the authenticity of the apparition–only its worthiness in advancement of the Faith (hence worthy of belief).
M
Memaw
Guest
January 8, 2009One final add-on—a nice little summary of the procedure for ‘approval’ of Apparitions:
NOTE: Papal 'acknowledgement… that he is ‘favorably disposed’…does not amount to a Papal decree, or ex-cathedra declaration as to the authenticity of the apparition–only its worthiness in advancement of the Faith (hence worthy of belief).
This failure to obey the Bishop would already be enough, according to the �Vademecum� devised by Benedict XVI, to declare the apparitions of Medjugorje to be false.
God Bless, Memaw
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thistle
Guest
I don’t need to discuss with anyone else.I think this conversation has reached it’s end. You need to discuss this with someone that is more knowledgeable than you or I. God Bless, Memaw
It is a fact that the Church does NOT have different grades of “worthy of belief”.
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thistle
Guest
On Medjugorie I agree with you that it is false.January 8, 2009
This failure to obey the Bishop would already be enough, according to the �Vademecum� devised by Benedict XVI, to declare the apparitions of Medjugorje to be false.
God Bless, Memaw
Three Bishops Commissions have already declared there is no evidence of any supernatural happenings there and that the visionaries are fake. Local priests trying to perpetuate the apparitions as being real had their faculties suspended. The then Cardinal Ratzinger stated Medjugorie was a hoax. Pilgrimages led by priests to Medjugorie are banned by the Church.
Normally that would be the end of it but because of all the controversy among Catholics (guess who likes to divide the faithful and its not God) it was put forward to the CDF in Rome and their first action was suspend another priest at the centre of the alleged apparitions.
What Medjugorie fanatics seem to think is we are waiting for a Church decision on this but the fact is that the local bishops who are the competent Church authorities have already made a decision and that is there is nothing supernatural happening there.
All the CDF in Rome will do is either uphold or overturn the decision but unless it is overturned the local bishops decision stands valid and in force.
Personally, I believe Medjugorie to be the work of Satan who loves to divide us.
G
Goya
Guest
@ Memaw and Thistle:
On a personal note–a priest I used to know and respect tremendously, used to lead pilgrimages to Medjugorje, and he spoke very highly of it (though he left–on an extended ‘sabbatical’–and although I never knew what the reason was, it may very well have been Medjugorje).
Benedict XVI hinted Medjugorje support
By Jakob Marschner on Feb 27, 2013
When asked about Medjugorje, Pope Benedict XVI told one of his possible successors to judge the tree by the fruits. And a personal friend of the Pope from his days as a Cardinal says Cardinal Ratzinger smiled and said “Just go!” when the place was mentioned, a lot like John Paul II’s reaction.
pope benedict xvi 16 medjugorje stand stance position hints support cardinal oscar andres maradiaga honduras
Pope Benedict XVI with Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras who says the Pope told him to judge the tree by its fruits with regard to Medjugorje
Statements from Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras and from a personal friend of the Pope for many years both indicate that Medjugorje is closer to the heart of Pope Benedict XVI than previously hinted by the Pope.
Asked by the Spanish-language Christian news portal Religion en Libertad if he ever heard Pope Benedict XVI about Medjugorje, the Cardinal answers:
“Once we talked about Medjugorje, His Holiness said: “By their fruits shall you know them”, and the fruits that I am seeing are very positive fruits.”
pope benedict xvi 16 georg ratzinger fr father brother ane lukac medjugorje
Pope Benedict XVI with his brother Georg who introduced the Croatian restaurant owner Ante Lukac to the future Pope during his time as a priest in Regensburg, Germany, where Lukac lived
Ante Lukac, a Croatian former restaurant owner in the German city of Regensburg, also got hints as to the Pope’s attitude towards Medjugorje. Lukac tells the Croatian daily Slobodna Dalmacija that he came to know Pope Benedict XVI during his time as a Cardinal, and served a New Years dinner for Cardinal Ratzinger every year for 13 consecutive years.
Ante Lukac’s wife and a friend of the couple also confirm to Slobodna Dalmacija that these dinners took place.
Cardinal Maradiaga of Honduras
“I purchased the wine for the occasion from a friend, a Caporice and one from Medjugorje. I think he loved Medjugorje, and he would actually smile at the mention of Medjugorje, and when I said I had been there on pilgrimage, he would say: Just go!” Ante Lukac tells the Croatian newspaper.
The reaction received by Lukac is reminiscent of that which Pope John Paul II often came up with when asked about Medjugorje, according to several people who said the Pope encouraged them to visit the place.
…and…
“There is no such place as Medjugorje”
Unlike the current Pope, the now 87 years old exorcist never kept hidden what he thinks about Medjugorje. In Globus, he states his position once more:
fr father padre gabriele amorh medjugorje
Fr. Gabriele Amorth
“I think that the apparitions are authentic. Young and old come to Medjugorje and return changed, enlightened. Young people are becoming believers. Medjugorje has the highest number of confessions. People are fascinated by the miracles that occur. I think that those who go to Medjugorje get what they need there, in terms of belief. Those who go there receive a clear signal” says Fr. Gabriele Amorth.
“There is another reason why I believe in the apparitions. People from within the Church, we should be much more cautious about these things. But after a pilgrimage, after visiting the site, they so believe in Medjugorje, they are so enthusiastic and loud about what you find in Medjugorje that my optimism and faith truly surpass expectations.”
“Medjugorje is therefore a very positive, strong phenomenon. In today’s world there is no such place like Medjugorje when it comes to religious enlightenment of the people and practice of their religion” he says.
I’m not necessarily saying I believe in the Medjugorje apparitions, but I don’t summarily discount them either. IOW, for me…as apparently with the Vatican…the “jury is still out.”
On a personal note–a priest I used to know and respect tremendously, used to lead pilgrimages to Medjugorje, and he spoke very highly of it (though he left–on an extended ‘sabbatical’–and although I never knew what the reason was, it may very well have been Medjugorje).
M
Memaw
Guest
You hear all kinds of stories but no proof they are true. I know a priest that went there to “check” for himself. And he said he saw nothing unusual but has more questions now than." I had before I went." Waiting for the Church to say if it is “Worthy of Belief”, is the only safe thing to do. What good would it do to run after something just to find out it was not true.@ Memaw and Thistle:
…and…
I’m not necessarily saying I believe in the Medjugorje apparitions, but I don’t summarily discount them either. IOW, for me…as apparently with the Vatican…the “jury is still out.”
On a personal note–a priest I used to know and respect tremendously, used to lead pilgrimages to Medjugorje, and he spoke very highly of it (though he left–on an extended ‘sabbatical’–and although I never knew what the reason was, it may very well have been Medjugorje).
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Goya
Guest
Yeah, I pretty much agree with that.You hear all kinds of stories but no proof they are true. I know a priest that went there to “check” for himself. And he said he saw nothing unusual but has more questions now than." I had before I went." Waiting for the Church to say if it is “Worthy of Belief”, is the only safe thing to do. What good would it do to run after something just to find out it was not true.
It would take at least as much preparation effort, time and money to go to Lourdes, Fatima, or Guadalupe (actually significantly more than to 'Lupe, since Mex. is so much closer), than to go all the way to Yugoslavia.
…I’m just saying I’m not inclined to summarily dismiss the claims as hoax (note: which is not saying that I am inclined to believe it as authentic).
FWIW: I’ve never been to Lourdes or Fatima, but have been to (the Basilica of) Guadalupe several times. It is a powerful experience that I would highly recommend to anyone.
R
Rasoleil
Guest
I have a question regarding private relevations and/or someone claiming to have a vision, particularly an internal spiritual or mystic vision. I’ll need to explain a situation that I soneone told me that they had a " vision". now, this was not just a person coming up to me and telling me that they had a vision, because I believe, and probably am certain, that it was either a “vision” that this person had, and certainly couldn’t or wouldn’t be approved by the Church, or she and others associated with her were committing a fraud just to placate and bring an end to a particular situation. I know because this happened to me last week. I’ll be as brief as possible, because the issue is rather complex and would need avery long explanation. Last week I attended a special prayer meeting a church, and those who were there were myself, my wife, a parish priest, a parish priest of that church, and his lay assistant. Basically, and not including other details, we all prayed intensely for about 20 minutes or so. Nothing extraordinary in that, and of course, that’s not disregarding the act of prayer itself, but what happened immediately afterward. Immediately after the prayers were completed, the parish priest’s lay assistant started describing a “vision” or private revelation ( not sure what she experienced or claimed to have experienced) of me in a certain spiritual journey or state, of which the details aren’t the issue. The priests basically agreed with her vision/revelation. I’ll ask what probably an obvious question, but I would like people who knowledgable, as well as anyone with opinions to respond. I don’t think, and am sure, that this was a true spiritual vision from God, and, I question why the priests just agreed with her without any proper discernment, that of which, they obviously didn’t do, nor had the authority to do so. I believe that either she had a “vision” of some type that she manufactured herself, from her own imagination and it was she wanted to see, or all of them conspired to perpetuate a fraudulent show just to placate me regarding the issue that I was/am having, and just to have me go away. Do parish priests have the authority to approve a vision on the spot? Have they committed a heresy by doing so? Are they rogue priests?
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thistle
Guest
NO.I have a question regarding private relevations and/or someone claiming to have a vision, particularly an internal spiritual or mystic vision. I’ll need to explain a situation that I soneone told me that they had a " vision". now, this was not just a person coming up to me and telling me that they had a vision, because I believe, and probably am certain, that it was either a “vision” that this person had, and certainly couldn’t or wouldn’t be approved by the Church, or she and others associated with her were committing a fraud just to placate and bring an end to a particular situation. I know because this happened to me last week. I’ll be as brief as possible, because the issue is rather complex and would need avery long explanation. Last week I attended a special prayer meeting a church, and those who were there were myself, my wife, a parish priest, a parish priest of that church, and his lay assistant. Basically, and not including other details, we all prayed intensely for about 20 minutes or so. Nothing extraordinary in that, and of course, that’s not disregarding the act of prayer itself, but what happened immediately afterward. Immediately after the prayers were completed, the parish priest’s lay assistant started describing a “vision” or private revelation ( not sure what she experienced or claimed to have experienced) of me in a certain spiritual journey or state, of which the details aren’t the issue. The priests basically agreed with her vision/revelation. I’ll ask what probably an obvious question, but I would like people who knowledgable, as well as anyone with opinions to respond. I don’t think, and am sure, that this was a true spiritual vision from God, and, I question why the priests just agreed with her without any proper discernment, that of which, they obviously didn’t do, nor had the authority to do so. I believe that either she had a “vision” of some type that she manufactured herself, from her own imagination and it was she wanted to see, or all of them conspired to perpetuate a fraudulent show just to placate me regarding the issue that I was/am having, and just to have me go away. **Do parish priests have the authority to approve a vision on the spot? **Have they committed a heresy by doing so? Are they rogue priests?
There is a formal process that involves extensive investigations which normally can take years and then it is up to the Bishop (he is the competent local Church authority) to make a decision.
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Rasoleil
Guest
Thank you much for the definitive answer. I just knew in my gut that immediately after it happened something was not right, and became depressed about it. I had just recently come back home to the Church after decades of having lost faith, and this situation has really saddened me. I didn’t attend Mass this past Sunday because just the thought of what happened just made me disgusted and depressed. I will recover, of course, but but this really did strike a serious blow to my faith in the Church. What truly unnerves me more is that if Bishop approved the prayer session (which truly feel I needed, grant you, so I have no complaint about that), with the foreknowlege that a person was there intentionally to provide a private vision after the prayers, than that really increases the severity of the issue, at least to me. I had written the Bishop and explained exactly what transpired, but I haven’t received an answer. Granted, the event only happened a week ago, and I wrote to him via email, but you’d think with the grave concerns I had about this, that’d I get a quicker response. the priest even sent an offical report to the bishop, but it didn’t include the " visionary" part. But like I said, I descibed in detail and expressed my concerns to the Bishop about the so-called " vision", that I did not believe it, the little I knew (though I was still correct about it) about the formal approval process. The lack of response makes me think even more that he had no problem with the “vision” and showing his approval by saying nothing.
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Rasoleil
Guest
Here is the bishop’s response in part, and pertaining to this issue: “While kind of discenment prayer power is mysterious, it is firnly rooted in Catholic theology which recognizes the pregorative of the Holy Spirit to gift the faithful with various ‘charisms’ which are special graces given to a person for the building up of the Church and for the good of the people and the world.” Maybe I just misunderstood or just not understand their intentions, and I had no idea that the Church recognizes certain people as " charisms", and that there was one their for a specific purpose. But I still question the vadility of such an immediate vision withouth anyone else of higher authority of discerning it. Have I then been wrong all along?
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Goya
Guest
You obviously left a lot of details out, so that hampers any attempts at meaningful analysis, quite a bit, off the bat.I have a question regarding private relevations and/or someone claiming to have a vision, particularly an internal spiritual or mystic vision. I’ll need to explain a situation that I soneone told me that they had a " vision". now, this was not just a person coming up to me and telling me that they had a vision, because I believe, and probably am certain, that it was either a “vision” that this person had, and certainly couldn’t or wouldn’t be approved by the Church, or she and others associated with her were committing a fraud just to placate and bring an end to a particular situation. I know because this happened to me last week. I’ll be as brief as possible, because the issue is rather complex and would need avery long explanation. Last week I attended a special prayer meeting a church, and those who were there were myself, my wife, a parish priest, a parish priest of that church, and his lay assistant. Basically, and not including other details, we all prayed intensely for about 20 minutes or so. Nothing extraordinary in that, and of course, that’s not disregarding the act of prayer itself, but what happened immediately afterward. Immediately after the prayers were completed, the parish priest’s lay assistant started describing a “vision” or private revelation ( not sure what she experienced or claimed to have experienced) of me in a certain spiritual journey or state, of which the details aren’t the issue. The priests basically agreed with her vision/revelation. I’ll ask what probably an obvious question, but I would like people who knowledgable, as well as anyone with opinions to respond. I don’t think, and am sure, that this was a true spiritual vision from God, and, I question why the priests just agreed with her without any proper discernment, that of which, they obviously didn’t do, nor had the authority to do so. I believe that either she had a “vision” of some type that she manufactured herself, from her own imagination and it was she wanted to see, or all of them conspired to perpetuate a fraudulent show just to placate me regarding the issue that I was/am having, and just to have me go away. Do parish priests have the authority to approve a vision on the spot? Have they committed a heresy by doing so? Are they rogue priests?
That said, if we take every thing you did say, as an accurate characterization of what actually transpired (allowing for no ‘misunderstandings’ or such on the priest’s part, etc.,), and the priest summarily indicated that he believed the ‘vision’ was authentic…then ‘rogue’ priest might be applicable…or dangerously careless…and/or gullible…
But please note, the priest is entitled to his own opinion–even as to the authenticity of a claimed vision. In fact, so is the Pope.
Hence Pope Francis (hypothetically speaking here) could believe that the apparitions of Medagorje were authentic; he make pilgrimage to the place; he may show reverence to Our Lady of Medagorje…
…that does not amount to the Church giving even a negative approval of the apparition.
Not as long as the Pope isn’t speaking ex-catherdra.
Much less a single priest in Anytown, USA.
The priest may be dead wrong. He may be gullible as a kindergartner vis a vis Santa Clause. He may even be complicit in deception.
He remains a man and a sinner, even after his ordination.
Don’t misunderstand–I’m not making light of his alleged actions, and certainly not condoning it–just putting it into perspective–IF he is guilty of what you suggest, he would certainly be guilty of breaching his fiduciary duty to you, primarily, as a believer entrusted to his guidance.
…but he has no authority to make any kind of declaration concerning the authenticity of an apparition–so any proclamations to that effect, should be given all the significance of any individual’s personal opinion.
IOW: take it with a grain of salt (that is, assuming he genuinely believed, as is just gullible; not that he intentionally sought to deceive you. If you believe he intentionally attempted to deceive you, I’d confront him, and call him out on it, to his face. But that’s just me…_.
You did the right thing in writing to the Bishop, regardless.
R
Rasoleil
Guest
I can give more of the details if you would like. I truly appreciate your answers and understand everything. I did leave a lot out purposely because I didn’t want to write someone too details that no one would want to read. But adding them would put everything more into perspective. I wasn’t trying to cause anyone any trouble by asking anyone here, and I don’t intend to do or say anything unless someone who would definitely know the facts. You have explained much to me, and I can understand the subject better. I may just go ahead tonight and explain the reason why the prayer session occured, but not go into too much detail that it would point anyone out. Would you are anyone be willing to read more of what lead to the necessity of the prayer session? I assure you or anyone that it would be very interesting. Thanks, Greg
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Rasoleil
Guest
I just spent hour writing everything in detail, and I neglected to post the thing. I will not do it again, not tonight. Basically I witnessed an an exorcism ( my then best friend’s father)and experienced diabolical attack and all sorts of diabolical activity. the prayer session was the last in a line of sucessive discernment prayer sessions to discern if I was suffering under some diabilical oppression because ever since then, to this day, I have had frequent nightmares, night terrors, sleep paralysis,hearing disembodied voices in my home, seeing shadowy figures etc., But how many people can say they experienced severe diabolical attack in a known exorcism, and who knows what psychological and spiritual effects it can have on a person? It may not be diabolical obession, but there is some type of diabolical activity, even if’s more of a negative psychological influence? If anyone wants, I will explain in as much detail possible of the exorcism, the diabolical activity, the diabolical attacks, and the recent prayers sessions ( but not giving names). Since I wrote that the bishop explained to me basically that this person has a " charism", what do any of you know about this? Are there really persons approved by the Church as " charisms" who are capable of having such visions and the visions not being discerned by the bishop through a long process as descibed? He told me that the vision was real and accurate to my circumstance ( as I word it now) as you can see what I quoted.
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thistle
Guest
None of these are necessarily diabolical. In fact they are more likely not to be.I just spent hour writing everything in detail, and I neglected to post the thing. I will not do it again, not tonight. Basically I witnessed an an exorcism ( my then best friend’s father)and experienced diabolical attack and all sorts of diabolical activity. the prayer session was the last in a line of sucessive discernment prayer sessions to discern if I was suffering under some diabilical oppression because ever since then, to this day,** I have had frequent nightmares, night terrors, sleep paralysis,hearing disembodied voices in my home, seeing shadowy figures etc.**, But how many people can say they experienced severe diabolical attack in a known exorcism, and who knows what psychological and spiritual effects it can have on a person? It may not be diabolical obession, but there is some type of diabolical activity, even if’s more of a negative psychological influence? If anyone wants, I will explain in as much detail possible of the exorcism, the diabolical activity, the diabolical attacks, and the recent prayers sessions ( but not giving names). Since I wrote that the bishop explained to me basically that this person has a " charism", what do any of you know about this? Are there really persons approved by the Church as " charisms" who are capable of having such visions and the visions not being discerned by the bishop through a long process as descibed? He told me that the vision was real and accurate to my circumstance ( as I word it now) as you can see what I quoted.
Why would you conclude these are diabolical?
G
Goya
Guest
First, concerning Thistle’s post above, although these conditions may ‘not necessarily be’ ‘diabolical’, the devil’s deeds may manifest in countless ways. So it may very well be the case, though his suggestion is well taken–the conclusion you draw is worth inquiring on.I just spent hour writing everything in detail, and I neglected to post the thing. I will not do it again, not tonight. Basically I witnessed an an exorcism ( my then best friend’s father)and experienced diabolical attack and all sorts of diabolical activity. the prayer session was the last in a line of sucessive discernment prayer sessions to discern if I was suffering under some diabilical oppression because ever since then, to this day, I have had frequent nightmares, night terrors, sleep paralysis,hearing disembodied voices in my home, seeing shadowy figures etc., But how many people can say they experienced severe diabolical attack in a known exorcism, and who knows what psychological and spiritual effects it can have on a person? It may not be diabolical obession, but there is some type of diabolical activity, even if’s more of a negative psychological influence? If anyone wants, I will explain in as much detail possible of the exorcism, the diabolical activity, the diabolical attacks, and the recent prayers sessions ( but not giving names). Since I wrote that the bishop explained to me basically that this person has a " charism", what do any of you know about this? Are there really persons approved by the Church as " charisms" who are capable of having such visions and the visions not being discerned by the bishop through a long process as descibed? He told me that the vision was real and accurate to my circumstance ( as I word it now) as you can see what I quoted.
Second, we’re in a whole different league when we’re talking about ‘apparitions’ and divine revelation, vs. ‘visions’ of one who has been ‘discerned’ to have a ‘charism’–especially when were contrasting identifying ‘diabolic’ manifestations, vs. claimed ‘devine revelations’–which is what I thought your first post was referring to.
Third, ‘charisms’ are ‘gifts of grace from the Holy Spirit’–see the Catechism of the Catholic Church at Section 799. The ‘visions’ of one who has been ‘discerned’ to who have such a a ‘charism’, are not necessarily required to be discerned by the Bishop–the ‘charism’ itself, however, is. Hence if your bishop wrote to you and told you that the person has a charism, the natural presumption arises that the bishop has already discerned this to be authentic.
Please note that this does not mean that everything one who has been discerned to have a charism, is therefore to be accepted as genuine–but such a person should at least enjoy the presumption of authenticity concerning the charism entrusted to them by the Holy Spirit.
Go ahead and post your facts, as we’ll see how can apply these concepts (and perhaps others).
Also, as always, I caveat: I am not an authority, and do not pretend to authority. I gladly welcome any corrections to any of the substance covered in any of my posts. So if I have mis-spoken, or mis-characterized anything above, let anyone with superior knowledge or experience feel–not just free, but welcome, to correct me as needed.
R
Rasoleil
Guest
I appreciate your explanation regarding the charisms. I no not disagree with anything that you have analyized and explained, as I am opened minded, and willing to accept others opinions and/or when the facts are presented to me. I am objective enough to realize that there are many natural, scientific and psychological reasons which would explain everything I had and have experienced.
I just cannot discount the fact of the situation that experienced when I was a youth. I had been a witness to an possession, the exorcism, and personally experienced a diabolical attack while at the exorcism. Mt best frien’s father eas possessed and my parish priest was the exorcist. I do not think that I have to explain possession and everything that accompanies it, as well as an exorcism, as I’m sure that you have the experience amd knowledge to know all about it.
Regarding what I consider a diabolical attack is something that I know was a fact, so I will not give on this. I, as well as my friend, was in one of the rooms of the house when everything started, was particularily focused on us. The room was quiet, but very eerie and thick with the presence of evil because the exorcism was in the bedroom adjacent to the living room where we were at the time. All of a sudden absolute chaos broke out. levitations of practically everything in the room, objects being leviated, then being moved about randomly, then an attacked became focused on us with items being circuling around us, following us whereever we moved, and then it esculated to the point where the levitated objects started being thrown and hurled at us and hitting us extremely violently.
While this was happened we experienced an abnormal coldness in the room, smelled the most foul stences, heard disembodied demonic voices throughout the room and surrounding us, the most unnerving diabolical maniacal laughter, foul language, blasphemy, mocking, crude animal-like, but not totally animal, growlings, and the disembodied voices, multiple voices everywhere, voices shouting at us, mocking us, voices speaking multiple languages of which we obviously did not know, and other horrific things. We were chased out of the room by these entities with the levitating objects having been more violently follwing us and chasing us.
This is fact, and indisputable as the archdioses has to have records of this. The exorcist was our parish priest.
All of the phenomona that I have experienced since can be explained off to a multitude of natural, scientific, medical, and psychological reasons. I get that. But in your, and anyone elses opinion, can anyone say for sure or deny that anyone who has experience a possession, exorcism, and a violent diabolical attack, besides the trauma and PTSD being associated with it, can anyone rule out and dismiss the possibility that such entities could follow a person, attach to them in some way, and cause some of these phenonoma? Does scripture or Church tradition say otherwise;say that it is impossible?
I just cannot discount the fact of the situation that experienced when I was a youth. I had been a witness to an possession, the exorcism, and personally experienced a diabolical attack while at the exorcism. Mt best frien’s father eas possessed and my parish priest was the exorcist. I do not think that I have to explain possession and everything that accompanies it, as well as an exorcism, as I’m sure that you have the experience amd knowledge to know all about it.
Regarding what I consider a diabolical attack is something that I know was a fact, so I will not give on this. I, as well as my friend, was in one of the rooms of the house when everything started, was particularily focused on us. The room was quiet, but very eerie and thick with the presence of evil because the exorcism was in the bedroom adjacent to the living room where we were at the time. All of a sudden absolute chaos broke out. levitations of practically everything in the room, objects being leviated, then being moved about randomly, then an attacked became focused on us with items being circuling around us, following us whereever we moved, and then it esculated to the point where the levitated objects started being thrown and hurled at us and hitting us extremely violently.
While this was happened we experienced an abnormal coldness in the room, smelled the most foul stences, heard disembodied demonic voices throughout the room and surrounding us, the most unnerving diabolical maniacal laughter, foul language, blasphemy, mocking, crude animal-like, but not totally animal, growlings, and the disembodied voices, multiple voices everywhere, voices shouting at us, mocking us, voices speaking multiple languages of which we obviously did not know, and other horrific things. We were chased out of the room by these entities with the levitating objects having been more violently follwing us and chasing us.
This is fact, and indisputable as the archdioses has to have records of this. The exorcist was our parish priest.
All of the phenomona that I have experienced since can be explained off to a multitude of natural, scientific, medical, and psychological reasons. I get that. But in your, and anyone elses opinion, can anyone say for sure or deny that anyone who has experience a possession, exorcism, and a violent diabolical attack, besides the trauma and PTSD being associated with it, can anyone rule out and dismiss the possibility that such entities could follow a person, attach to them in some way, and cause some of these phenonoma? Does scripture or Church tradition say otherwise;say that it is impossible?
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