Aquinas and Zealous Anger

  • Thread starter Thread starter marywarfield
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

marywarfield

Guest
Not sure if this is the correct forum but seeking answers
to a another thread in which the question came up: is
zealous anger a virtue or vice and if person/sin differentiation
exists. After presenting several examples from Augustine
and Aquinas of the importance of zealous anger and
the development of it as a virtuous habit, I was told
that all anger is wrong and that zealous anger as a
good was not a Catholic perspective, was not Catholic teaching,
and was
also not Christian.
Did Aquinas change his mind? And in zealous anger
is the anger directed at the sin and not the person as
Augustine maintained?

I was specifically referencing this work:
ts.mu.edu/readers/content/pdf/68/68.4/68.4.5.pdf
 
Not sure if this is the correct forum but seeking answers
to a another thread in which the question came up: is
zealous anger a virtue or vice and if person/sin differentiation
exists. After presenting several examples from Augustine
and Aquinas of the importance of zealous anger and
the development of it as a virtuous habit, I was told
that all anger is wrong and that zealous anger as a
good was not a Catholic perspective, was not Catholic teaching,
and was
also not Christian.
Did Aquinas change his mind? And in zealous anger
is the anger directed at the sin and not the person as
Augustine maintained?

I was specifically referencing this work:
ts.mu.edu/readers/content/pdf/68/68.4/68.4.5.pdf
Aquinas didn’t change his mind because his views on anger are grounded in his wider ethical and metaphysical principles.

This paper by Michael Rota does a very good job explaining why Aquinas has a very defensible view.

personal.stthomas.edu/mwrota/Moral%20Status%20of%20Anger%20ACPQ%20FINAL.pdf

You may want to read my last response to the poster who claimed otherwise.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11643821&postcount=212
 
Anger is such a dangerous thing precisely because it is so difficult to control.
 
Anger is such a dangerous thing precisely because it is so difficult to control.
Perhaps the reason it is “difficult to control” is because its legitimate expression is suppressed but the manner in which it is most obviously expressed (rage) need not be the only way in which it ought to be expressed.

In other words, we wrongly suppress legitimate anger to the point of it becoming explosive BECAUSE we, again, wrongly suppose every expression of anger should be resisted. We haven’t properly learned to express anger because showing any expression is socially frowned upon.
 
In Catholic teaching, anger is a passion. It is morally neutral. It is definitely not one of the virtues. Anger can be informed by reason to contribute to the good, or to do evil.
Most scripture passages urge caution in the use of anger, or the flat out rejection of it.

Did either of you two read the catechism before you opened another thread on this issue?
Here is the section that deals specifically with the virtues.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a7.htm

Just for starters we can start with this below, but there is plenty more for those with open minds and the time to read:
PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION ONE
MAN’S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT
CHAPTER ONE
THE DIGNITY OF THE HUMAN PERSON
ARTICLE 7
THE VIRTUES
1803 "Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things."62
**A virtue is an habitual and firm disposition to do the good. **It allows the person not only to perform good acts, but to give the best of himself. The virtuous person tends toward the good with all his sensory and spiritual powers; he pursues the good and chooses it in concrete actions.
The goal of a virtuous life is to become like God.63
I look forward to posting good Catholic thought on this issue, as was done on the other thread. The catechism is always a great starting point for foundational Catholic thought. 👍
 
In Catholic teaching, anger is a passion. It is morally neutral. It is definitely not one of the virtues. Anger can be informed by reason to contribute to the good, or to do evil.
Most scripture passages urge caution in the use of anger, or the flat out rejection of it.

Did either of you two read the catechism before you opened another thread on this issue?
Here is the section that deals specifically with the virtues.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a7.htm

Just for starters we can start with this below, but there is plenty more for those with open minds and the time to read:

I look forward to posting good Catholic thought on this issue, as was done on the other thread. The catechism is always a great starting point for foundational Catholic thought. 👍
Why the insistence that Aquinas is NOT good Catholic teaching?
The Catechism to a large degree based in Thomistc
thought. So I believe you are in error when
insisting a. Aquinas is in opposition to the catechism and
b. the Catechism is the only source of itself.
 
In Catholic teaching, anger is a passion. It is morally neutral. It is definitely not one of the virtues. Anger can be informed by reason to contribute to the good, or to do evil.
Most scripture passages urge caution in the use of anger, or the flat out rejection of it.

Did either of you two read the catechism before you opened another thread on this issue?
Here is the section that deals specifically with the virtues.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a7.htm

Just for starters we can start with this below, but there is plenty more for those with open minds and the time to read:

I look forward to posting good Catholic thought on this issue, as was done on the other thread. The catechism is always a great starting point for foundational Catholic thought. 👍
And again since the Catechism itself bases it’s
discussion on Thomistic thought in large part for
their determination of virtues and vices (recalling
we are NOT Sola Scriptura) I really suggest that you
Do read Summa Theologica ll, ll ae, 158-158.8.
 
In Catholic teaching, anger is a passion. It is morally neutral. It is definitely not one of the virtues. Anger can be informed by reason to contribute to the good, or to do evil.
I think what we have here is a misunderstanding of the concepts behind “virtue” and a possible ambiguity between two slightly different meanings of the word.

Virtue can mean a “good quality.” in other words, patience is a virtue in the sense that patience is a sought after trait in human beings.

Virtue, in the classic Aristotelian and Thomistic sense is a “power” or “faculty” that enables particular outcomes. When we use the word in phrases like “in virtue of” or “enabled by” we mean this sense of the word.

Virtues are those faculties or powers that are part of being human that enable humans to fulfill our intended purpose.

A hammer has “virtues” which are the “great-making” qualities that allow it best to fulfill its function as a hammer.

The qualities of a human soul that “empower” it to be the best possible example of a human soul are its 'virtues." Since humans, unlike hammers, are active agents, the “great-making” qualities of humans are the faculties that empower or move the human agent to action.

Love moves. That is why it is a “virtue” in this wider sense of being a capacity that enables humans to act. However, when love is disordered and not aimed at proper ends, then the “virtue” that ought to be a “great-making” trait in a human agent is actually the very means by which the agent is disordered and, thereby, lacks greatness.

If the “virtue” or power did not exist in the first place there would be no question of disorder because passive things do not act. Humans are active agents, that is why our “virtues” are the qualities that promote our activity.

In this sense, the existence of any virtue (empowering characteristic) is the very means by which vice is brought about, because vices are also “powered” or “active.” Any power (virtue) is virtuous when it functions as it should, but “vicious” when it does not.

That is why the cardinal virtues each have a deadly sin or vice that corresponds to them.

Anger, of itself, as you have pointed out is neither virtuous nor vicious. It is, however, a “virtue” in the sense of an aspect of the soul (passion) that empowers it towards some end. In the case of anger, as Aquinas points out, that end is justice.

Likewise, we could say, the hero acted by virtue of his love or courage (both virtues) to save the drowning child. Love moves to action. That is why it is a “virtue” in the Aristotelian sense of “power of the soul.” But disordered love and disordered courage (brashness=unrestrained, timidity=overly restrained) are both vices.

We could also claim a hero acts by virtue of his anger to stop a rapist from committing his deed. He intervened out of anger witnessing an injustice about to be committed. Anger, like love, moves to action. Likewise, it is a virtue or “power” of the soul.

Both love and anger require proper ordering. That is accomplished by the faculty of reason properly ordering both powers (among others) toward the ‘good.’ Both “powers” also require a kind of “opposing” or controlling mechanism.

In the case of anger, Aquinas, calls it meekness - the virtue of abating anger. However, if anger is only abated then it cannot move the agent to action when injustice is witnessed. That would be a vice

It could be argued that meekness which is not properly balanced by the virtue of “anger” will acquiesce to evil and injustice will reign because the agent does not properly activate the proper capacity or power - the virtue to be angry at injustice.

It appears that Jesus’ admonition to “turn the other cheek” or the Beatitude lauding “blessed are the meek” is advocating that meekness necessarily excludes anger.

This is a misreading, however, because the options are not “fight (anger) or flight (meekness)” but something in between: anger properly controlled by meekness properly activated, but also anger properly activated by meekness properly restrained. This would be a virtuous state of the soul - one properly ordered towards justice.

Turn the other cheek is not an admonition Jesus would make when witnessing a child being abused. He would NOT advocate standing back and telling the child to turn the other cheek because that is what a good Christian would do. No, we should rightly become angry and be moved to intervene by that anger. That anger would be virtuous BECAUSE it is a power to act for the cause of justice.
 
I think what we have here is a misunderstanding of the concepts behind “virtue”
Yes we do indeed. Now I think we’re on the same page.

If I haven’t already, might I suggest reading the catechism as a starting point to understand what virtue is, and what passion is. And what anger is, and is not.
 
Perhaps the reason it is “difficult to control” is because its legitimate expression is suppressed but the manner in which it is most obviously expressed (rage) need not be the only way in which it ought to be expressed.

In other words, we wrongly suppress legitimate anger to the point of it becoming explosive BECAUSE we, again, wrongly suppose every expression of anger should be resisted. We haven’t properly learned to express anger because showing any expression is socially frowned upon.
Here is an excellent article written for laity on the
sin of NOT exercising zealous anger as a virtue but
instead going to the opposite of zeal into unreasonable
patience. cuf.org/2010/07/the-art-of-living-anger-and-virtue/

I also found it most interesting that Augustine developed
his view of the importance of possessing zealous anger
based on the Pre-Vulgate writing if Matthew 5:22- “He who is
angry with his brother, without just cause, is liable to
judgement”. According to Mattison, just as Augustine
developed his view, subsequent Biblical translations
dropped the words “without just cause”. Augustine then
referred to “his brother” as his proof of zealous anger
as a virtue for “who are my mother and brothers”? sufficed.

Do we know WHY “without just cause” was dropped
from translations?
 
Do we know WHY “without just cause” was dropped
from translations?
Mattison explains why in the document you linked - because they were later additions:
By the time Augustine wrote his Retractiones 30 years later, he had become aware that, unlike the Old Latin Gospel text he cited in De sermone, the original Greek Gospel text did not contain the qualifier “without cause.” This exclusion would appear to eliminate the possibility of virtuous anger. After all, if Jesus’ words were “he who is angry with his brother is liable to judgment,” it would seem that there is no proper role for anger in the Christian life. Indeed, this is the line of interpretation offered by Jerome in his own Commentarius in evangelium secundum Matthaeum. Jerome observes that certain texts add “without cause,” but claims that, since this phrase is inauthentic, the precept against anger is unqualified.
The commentary of Jerome, referenced by Mattison, is this:
5.22. “Everyone who is angry with his brother.” In some codices it is added: “without reason”. But in the authentic texts the judgement is definite and anger is altogether forbidden, since the Scripture says: “Whoever is angry with his brother”. For we are commanded to turn the other cheek to the one who strikes us, and to love our enemies, and to pray for those who persecute us, every occasion of anger is removed. Therefore, the words “without reason” should be erased. For “man’s anger does not work the justice of God” (James 1:20).
See also Haydock:
haydock1859.tripod.com/id19.html
 
Here is an excellent article written for laity on the
sin of NOT exercising zealous anger as a virtue but
instead going to the opposite of zeal into unreasonable
patience. cuf.org/2010/07/the-art-of-living-anger-and-virtue/

I also found it most interesting that Augustine developed
his view of the importance of possessing zealous anger
based on the Pre-Vulgate writing if Matthew 5:22- “He who is
angry with his brother, without just cause, is liable to
judgement”. According to Mattison, just as Augustine
developed his view, subsequent Biblical translations
dropped the words “without just cause”. Augustine then
referred to “his brother” as his proof of zealous anger
as a virtue for “who are my mother and brothers”? sufficed.

Do we know WHY “without just cause” was dropped
from translations?
I think earlier versions were found that did not have “without just cause,” so it was believed to have been a later addition to the original text.
 
Yes we do indeed. Now I think we’re on the same page.

If I haven’t already, might I suggest reading the catechism as a starting point to understand what virtue is, and what passion is. And what anger is, and is not.
Would you agree that anger can be a vice for some?
 
I think earlier versions were found that did not have “without just cause,” so it was believed to have been a later addition to the original text.
Yes I found that. I also see that later in his Retractiones
he made his case on “his brother” but not for the reason
I stated above in error. He made his case at this later
point based on his idea that in zealous anger one is not
angry at the brother but at the sin of the brother.
Which has always made the most sense to me. Why
bother being angry with the person when it is the
sin that is the offense? Makes no sense to me. I have
noticed I can be quite angry with someone for reasons
that may have no sinful component attached in so far
as the offending person goes. When that happens I know
my anger is disordered. At the same time I can be in the
presence of great sin be angry but not at the person.
Which is WHY Augustine actually makes more sense
to me than Aquinas. But even Aquinas broke it up into
the sensitive and the intellectual which is probably
what is happening there I don’t know.
 
Popcorn and an opinion do not honest teaching make.
They just make an opinion with a messy shirt and greasy fingers. So?
The onus is on you Peter, to take apart Catholic Church teaching that has been posted.
You have failed on all counts.
  1. this thread has a disingenuous premise, to say the least.
    Here is the issue begun on the other thread, when Marywarfield said this:
I’m sorry. I thought we were discussing this from the viewpoint of Catholic
Christianity, not the viewpoint of everybody.
And if you continue to deny righteous anger as an actual virtue given to some
through the Holy Spirit I will bow out as I don’t feel comfortable
denying actual Church teachings.
…claiming the Church teaches that righteous anger is a virtue AND given by the Holy Spirit. This is nonsense, as was pointed out, using the catechism, and in the teaching of Aquinas, which undergirds the catechism.

Mary, you make this disingenuous claim that other posters (I) are disrespecting Aquinas:
Why the insistence that Aquinas is NOT good Catholic teaching?
The Catechism to a large degree based in Thomistc
thought. So I believe you are in error when
insisting a. Aquinas is in opposition to the catechism and
b. the Catechism is the only source of itself.
Have the courtesy to find where someone believes what you claim, post and directly point it out. You should apologize for this as it is manufactured drama using other posters as a punching bag.
When the argument has no merit, we change the subject.
  1. Did either of you bother to read Aquinas’ teaching on what a virtue is? Or are you busy bending Catholic Church teaching to your erroneous foregone conclusions?
    Here it is.
    newadvent.org/summa/2055.htm
    newadvent.org/summa/2061.htm
    newadvent.org/summa/2062.htm
Find for us the virtue named anger please. Find where anger is a gift of the Holy Spirit. This is nonsense.
  1. So that we might slam dunk the premise that anger is a virtue once and for all…
    the teaching from Aquinas that you are attempting to hijack for your own purposes categorizes anger as a passion and a “capital vice”, but not a virtue. That should tell you something, since you value Aquinas so highly, and rightly so! Anger can be used in the service of virtue, if regulated by right reason. Aquinas spends perhaps 2/3 of his discussion on anger talking about the dangers of it. But you already know that, don’t you Peter.
    Here it is, with a couple other sections that you conveniently left out.
    newadvent.org/summa/3158.htm
    newadvent.org/summa/2046.htm
    newadvent.org/summa/2048.htm
Your argument is bankrupt.
And thank God it is, lest we have folks believing that it is appropriate to latch on to anger, which is a passion (per Aquinas since you like him so much) with a propensity to engender vice (per Aquinas since you like him so much)
Thanks for the popcorn.
🍿
 
Popcorn and an opinion do not honest teaching make.
They just make an opinion with a messy shirt and greasy fingers. So?
The onus is on you Peter, to take apart Catholic Church teaching that has been posted.
You have failed on all counts.
  1. this thread has a disingenuous premise, to say the least.
    Here is the issue begun on the other thread, when Marywarfield said this:
…claiming the Church teaches that righteous anger is a virtue AND given by the Holy Spirit. This is nonsense, as was pointed out, using the catechism, and in the teaching of Aquinas, which undergirds the catechism.

Mary, you make this disingenuous claim that other posters (I) are disrespecting Aquinas:

Have the courtesy to find where someone believes what you claim, post and directly point it out. You should apologize for this as it is manufactured drama using other posters as a punching bag.
When the argument has no merit, we change the subject.
  1. Did either of you bother to read Aquinas’ teaching on what a virtue is? Or are you busy bending Catholic Church teaching to your erroneous foregone conclusions?
    Here it is.
    newadvent.org/summa/2055.htm
    newadvent.org/summa/2061.htm
    newadvent.org/summa/2062.htm
Find for us the virtue named anger please. Find where anger is a gift of the Holy Spirit. This is nonsense.
  1. So that we might slam dunk the premise that anger is a virtue once and for all…
    the teaching from Aquinas that you are attempting to hijack for your own purposes categorizes anger as a passion and a “capital vice”, but not a virtue. That should tell you something, since you value Aquinas so highly, and rightly so! Anger can be used in the service of virtue, if regulated by right reason. Aquinas spends perhaps 2/3 of his discussion on anger talking about the dangers of it. But you already know that, don’t you Peter.
    Here it is, with a couple other sections that you conveniently left out.
    newadvent.org/summa/3158.htm
    newadvent.org/summa/2046.htm
    newadvent.org/summa/2048.htm
Your argument is bankrupt.
And thank God it is, lest we have folks believing that it is appropriate to latch on to anger, which is a passion (per Aquinas since you like him so much) with a propensity to engender vice (per Aquinas since you like him so much)
Thanks for the popcorn.
🍿
Why all the dancing to avoid a simple question?

Do you agree it is a “capital vice,” but not a virtue?
 
Why all the dancing to avoid a simple question?

Do you agree it is a “capital vice,” but not a virtue?
  1. The answer to your question is contained in Aquinas, and is referenced in my post. It is sad that you do not read posts before you pounce on people.
But it is edifying that you seem to be interested in converting from “Socratic” to Catholicism.
In Catholicism, as you may know, since you have graduated to the Summa already, we have something called “Truth”. The Catholic Church has the fullest expression of the Truth. But all men are called to seek it in their hearts, all have an expression of it. But the fullest expression of it is in the Catholic Church, thank God, so that we do not come to idolize our many flawed opinions as Truth. The catechism of the Catholic Church is the normative expression of that Truth.

The catechism is an expression of what we call Tradition, with a capital T. The concept of Tradition is itself explained in the Catechism. Tradition honors the teaching of the Church over the years from theologians like Aquinas and Augustine, saints, scripture, as interpreted by the Magisterium of the Church. Since you have already graduated to the Summa, you should find it easy reading.
As a Catholic, this is what I respect and give my assent to. Since you are considering Catholicism, welcome to the fold.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

The catechism is a beautiful expression of our faith. I hope you find it edifying.
 
Lest we wander off into unsupported opinions:
12For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Proverbs 15:18
A hot-tempered man stirs up dissension, but a patient man calms a quarrel.
Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his anger, but a wise man keeps himself under control.
Psalm 37:8-9
Refrain from anger and turn from wrath; do not fret–it leads only to evil. For evil men will be cut off, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land.
Ecclesiastes 7:9
Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the lap of fools.
Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
James 4:1-2
What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God.
Ephesians 4:26-31
“In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold…
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.
Colossians 3
8But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other,
James 1:19-20
My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.
James 4:1-2
What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God.
Aquinas:
“Virtue is a good quality of the mind, by which we live righteously, of which no one can make bad use, which God works in us, without us.”…This definition comprises perfectly the whole essential notion of virtue.
Properly speaking anger is a passion of the sensitive appetite,

Anger, as stated above (Article 1), is properly the name of a passion. A passion of the sensitive appetite is good in so far as it is regulated by reason, whereas it is evil if it set the order of reason aside.
a capital vice is defined as one from which many vices arise. Now there are two reasons for which many vices can arise from anger. The first is on the part of its object which has much of the aspect of desirability, in so far as revenge is desired under the aspect of just or honest*, which is attractive by its excellence, as stated above (Article 4). [Honesty must be taken here in its broad sense as synonymous with moral goodness, from the point of view of decorum; Cf. 145, 1. The second is on the part of its impetuosity, whereby it precipitates the mind into all kinds of inordinate action. Therefore it is evident that anger is a capital vice.
And last but not least…the Catechism of the Catholic Church!:extrahappy:
1803 "Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things."62
**A virtue is **
an habitual and firm disposition to do the good. It allows the person not only to perform good acts, but to give the best of himself. The virtuous person tends toward the good with all his sensory and spiritual powers; he pursues the good and chooses it in concrete actions.

"If anyone loves righteousness, [Wisdom’s] labors are virtues; for she teaches temperance and prudence, justice, and courage.

There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77

God’s speed on your journey to Catholicism.
[/quote]
 
@ Clem:

I understand you believe Aquinas was not catholic in his
teaching nor are the modern theologians who discuss
zealous anger as virtuous as opposed to vicious
anger as a vice. They also are not Catholics in your view.
Yes we get it. But the rest of us hold Aquinas was
Catholic in his views as were Augustine and Chrystostom.

“he who is NOT angry in the presence of great sin, sins.”

Now that is directly and literally from St. John- a canonized
Catholic saint.

Are you Clem trying to harrass people
into believing
a. St. John Chrystotom was not a Catholic,
had not read the Catechism and
b. Was encouraging people in vice?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top