Aquinas on the soul-body relation

[Burning_Sapling]

Hi all,

I have a paper due tomorrow that has gotten away from me. Any help will be much appreciated.

How do particular souls come to be ‘paired’ with particular bodies for Aquinas? What is his argument that that Sam’s body could not become ‘united’ with Joe’s soul?

I’m aware that Aquinas thinks that the soul is the form of the body. But couldn’t one say that the body could take on different “forms” and hence be united with different souls and still remain a human body?

I believe that Aquinas says somewhere that particular bodies and particular souls are made for each other by God. But is there any other reason than this, any reason I can cite in a philosophy paper, that a particular living human body is constitutively joined not just with a human soul but with a given particular soul?

God Bless,

Sapling

 

[GEddie]

Isn’t the teaching that souls are formed within the bodies, and are not just put together?

 

[friardchips]

Isn’t the teaching that souls are formed within the bodies, and are not just put together?

How does one explain physical deficiency if this is the case - sometimes to extreme levels?

 

[GEddie]

How does one explain physical deficiency if this is the case - sometimes to extreme levels?

If you are referring to birth defects and the like, this does not necessarily prevent the body from holding soul (= life).

The human body is a natural body.. He or she forms according to natural processes, which may not work perfectly, subject to the will of God. But the body remains the only home of that particular soul. Souls are not pre-created and kept waiting for a body. The human soul is the soul of the body.

ICXC NIKA

 

[friardchips]

If you are referring to birth defects and the like, this does not necessarily prevent the body from holding soul (= life).

The human body is a natural body.. He or she forms according to natural processes, which may not work perfectly, subject to the will of God. But the body remains the only home of that particular soul. Souls are not pre-created and kept waiting for a body. The human soul is the soul of the body.

ICXC NIKA

Hi. Yes, I see this. But the soul is kept in the Wisdom of the Creator - The Word. When the body forms the soul is ‘created’ so and then kept within the body. That is fine. But the body is not equal to the soul. Otherwise, the soul, whether kept beforehand (as you say, is incorrect) or ‘created’ at the point of human conception, would be equal only to that physical state which might be dysfunctional. That is not to say that less able-formed people are less important but that their souls would then be equal in disfunction relational to the soul.

 

[GEddie]

I made no statement about “equality”. Such is meaningless in describing the human being.

Soul and body are categorically different, like light and water. More so, as light and water are both physical.

Where there is categoric difference, there can be no statement concerning equality.

But both soul and body are **equally needed **to form a human being; without the soul, the body is just a mannequin with unseeing, rolled-back eyes; without the body, the soul is a helpless wisp of nothing. Neither alone is a human being.

ICXC NIKA

 

[friardchips]

I made no statement about “equality”. Such is meaningless in describing the human being.

Soul and body are categorically different, like light and water. More so, as light and water are both physical.

Where there is categoric difference, there can be no statement concerning equality.

But both soul and body are **equally needed **to form a human being; without the soul, the body is just a mannequin with unseeing, rolled-back eyes; without the body, the soul is a helpless wisp of nothing. Neither alone is a human being.

ICXC NIKA

Yes. You are right. However, the soul without the body lives on but the body without the soul, dies. Point being, that the earthly body is not the resurrected body. It is a reflection of that which is to come. So when we see that the soul and body are formed together, the body, is the relational aspect of existence to the rest of creation - senses etc… - but it is the soul, that is the true “image”, that is eternal, and when given form in Heaven, we are then in true reflection of The Word, entwined with and in The Word. Another reason why (I think) the earthly body is inferior is because we have parts to pro-create. These are not needed in Heaven. Therefore, the body we receive in the future, maybe consists of such parts to eternally express the discipline we lived with, in order to participate in grace and get to Heaven, but the functional aspect is not needed (although, I think we are robed as angels); IOW, the soul consists (possibly) in the heart and mind of the present body, and mystically in union with Holy Spirit, and with further sanctification, organically forms the bodily substance we will consist of as indicated when our Lord rises and eats grilled fish. The Assumption in turn possibly also shows us that grace transforms. And what with saints being able to be in more places than one at the same time and perform other miracles with use of the body, in the power of grace, similarly shows us that the soul via grace seems to transform the body into some kind of truer reflection i.e:- a severely crippled person in this world, due to the possible innocence and gentleness of such a soul, could be as glorious in Heaven as a mild starlit ocean.

 

[marymary1975]

Isn’t the teaching that souls are formed within the bodies, and are not just put together?

^^^This. Soul and body are one entity. That one entity is formed at conception. They are not two different entities who coincide together at one.point in time. They are one unity that remain together. The soul.is.not created when the body is formed. That is an idea that comes from.the belief that body and soul.are separate entities which Aquinas doesn’t agree. They are a unity, and.as a unity start as a unity at conception.

 

[friardchips]

^^^This. Soul and body are one entity. That one entity is formed at conception. They are not two different entities who coincide together at one.point in time. They are one unity that remain together. The soul.is.not created when the body is formed. That is an idea that comes from.the belief that body and soul.are separate entities which Aquinas doesn’t agree. They are a unity, and.as a unity start as a unity at conception.

Sorry, I made a mistake in my posts too. “Conception” is key. Thanks for the correction.

 

[friardchips]

*'II. “BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE”

362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. 233

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.’*

• thought this Catechism citation might be applicable for analysis.

 

[GEddie]

Yes. You are right. However, the soul without the body lives on but the body without the soul, dies. Point being, that the earthly body is not the resurrected body. It is a reflection of that which is to come. So when we see that the soul and body are formed together, the body, is the relational aspect of existence to the rest of creation - senses etc… - but it is the soul, that is the true “image”, that is eternal, and when given form in Heaven, we are then in true reflection of The Word, entwined with and in The Word. Another reason why (I think) the earthly body is inferior is because we have parts to pro-create. These are not needed in Heaven. Therefore, the body we receive in the future, maybe consists of such parts to eternally express the discipline we lived with, in order to participate in grace and get to Heaven, but the functional aspect is not needed (although, I think we are robed as angels); IOW, the soul consists (possibly) in the heart and mind of the present body, and mystically in union with Holy Spirit, and with further sanctification, organically forms the bodily substance we will consist of as indicated when our Lord rises and eats grilled fish. The Assumption in turn possibly also shows us that grace transforms. And what with saints being able to be in more places than one at the same time and perform other miracles with use of the body, in the power of grace, similarly shows us that the soul via grace seems to transform the body into some kind of truer reflection i.e:- a severely crippled person in this world, due to the possible innocence and gentleness of such a soul, could be as glorious in Heaven as a mild starlit ocean.

Biblically (1Co), the “human body” is the seed of the spiritual body, or pneumatikon soma, to use the Scriptural term.

Both the seed form and the grown form are true, unlike a reflection. But it is the life within, and not the physical state of either one, that is the commonality.

ICXC NIKA

 

[friardchips]

Biblically (1Co), the “human body” is the seed of the spiritual body, or pneumatikon soma, to use the Scriptural term.

Both the seed form and the grown form are true, unlike a reflection. But it is the life within, and not the physical state of either one, that is the commonality.

ICXC NIKA

Okay. Your thoughts seem to concur with the CCC quote, in that, although the body and soul are in unity, it is the soul that is the form for both: ‘365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.’

Soul and body in one, and yet, it is the soul that is the source of the form. To people who are new to all this: :coolinoff:

It is through Original Sin that deformity has arisen. But that which was made “good” initially applies to what has been described (?)

 

[Richca]

^^^This. Soul and body are one entity. That one entity is formed at conception. They are not two different entities who coincide together at one.point in time. They are one unity that remain together. The soul.is.not created when the body is formed. That is an idea that comes from.the belief that body and soul.are separate entities which Aquinas doesn’t agree. They are a unity, and.as a unity start as a unity at conception.

Aquinas holds to Aristotle’s doctrine of hlyemorphism which is that material substances are a composite of two distinct principles, realities, or entities, namely, form and matter. Form is not matter nor is matter form. A human person or being is a composite of form and matter too. The form of a human being is the spiritual soul and the matter of a human being is the body. Together, the soul and the body form one human being, one person. But, this one human being is composed of two distinct parts, or principles, realities, or entities if you will. Entity here means that the soul alone or the body alone is not a complete being in itself but both the soul (form) and the body (matter) have actual existence in one human being and the soul survives the death of the body. So, the human spiritual soul is definitely not the same thing as the body which it animates. It can exist without the body though Aquinas calls separated souls incomplete beings because the human soul was made by God to be the form of the body which body God will raise on the last day. The parents of children supply the matter or the fertilized egg at conception of the child’s body and God immediately creates the spiritual soul and infuses it into this matter. The soul of human beings is not the product of the parents but every human soul is immediately created by God.

 

[fisherman_carl]

A third advantage of hylemorphic dualism is the light it arguably sheds on the philosophical problem of personal identity. Cartesian dualism entails that the real you is your soul, with your body being merely a non-essential vehicle that you walk around in, as it were. As complete substances, the soul can exist entirely apart from the body and (more to the present point) the body can exist entirely apart from the soul. This raises the puzzle of how you could know, even in principle, that in dealing with another person you are dealing with the same person over time. For all you ever observe is the person’s body; you never observe, and never could observe, the person’s soul, which is the thing that really is the person. So how do you know that the same soul, and thus the same person, is present in the body you’re talking to now as was present in it last week or last year? Even if the personality traits and the like seem the same, that might just be because another soul is occupying the same body and pretending to be the original one. You could never know for sure – again, not even in principle, it seems. This “re-identification problem” is as stark a problem for Cartesian dualism as the interaction problem. But if we return to the hylemorphic conception of the soul as the form of the body, the problem disappears. For since matter is not, on that view, a complete substance in its own right, there simply cannot be matter without form, and thus cannot be a body without a soul. In particular, since your soul is the form of your body specifically, it follows that if your body is present, your soul is too, and thus you are present. The re-identification problem cannot arise.

Edward Feser, “Aquinas”

 

[fisherman_carl]

Hi all,

I’m aware that Aquinas thinks that the soul is the form of the body. But couldn’t one say that the body could take on different “forms” and hence be united with different souls and still remain a human body?

In hylemorphism the body is not a complete substance. Matter is not a complete substance. Form and matter must be present for there to be a complete substance. Thus, you could not have matter without form to begin with. Likewise, you could not have the body without the soul. Since the soul is the form of the body. Thus, the body could not take on different forms other than the form it already has. The body as an incomplete substance has no power on its own to take on different forms. Nor does the identity of the form of the body change anymore than the identity of the body changes. Because it is really the same identity making up one substance. And, for Aquinas the soul is immortal.

 

[GEddie]

There is no possibility of a human body “taking on different souls.” The body is grown “around” and for a particular soul. Souls are not inserted into bodies; they are formed in and for the particular body. The human soul is the soul of the body.

Without the soul, the human body dies and ceases to function as a body, per se.

ICXC NIKA

 

[friardchips]

There is no possibility of a human body “taking on different souls.” The body is grown “around” and for a particular soul. Souls are not inserted into bodies; they are formed in and for the particular body. The human soul is the soul of the body.

Without the soul, the human body dies and ceases to function as a body, per se.

ICXC NIKA

Good morning, Geddie. So, in accordance with the CCC, that says the soul forms the body and the soul and body are in union making one person, how do you view this, taking into account genetics, and disabilities? I personally think the CCC contains the answer in the way it expresses this truth but not sure you understand why it says what it says - taking into account Orig. Sin.

 

[friardchips]

edited.

 

[GEddie]

Good morning, Geddie. So, in accordance with the CCC, that says the soul forms the body and the soul and body are in union making one person, how do you view this, taking into account genetics, and disabilities? I personally think the CCC contains the answer in the way it expresses this truth but not sure you understand why it says what it says - taking into account Orig. Sin.

The soul is formed by the genes and even the disabilities.

ICXC NIKA

 

[friardchips]

The soul is formed by the genes and even the disabilities.

ICXC NIKA

Thanks for the response.

Respectfully, you say here: “The body is grown “around” and for a particular soul.”

• this statement suggests that the soul came first and does seem to conflict with your above statement that the soul if formed by the genes. So which is it: is the body grown around the soul - the soul came first - or do the genes form the soul. It cannot be both.

Unless you mean something different that I’m not interpreting (?)

The issue I take with this is that people’s souls are not disabled. Disease itself is an evil. Every soul is not born evil. So souls are not disabled. Souls are hindered. Our souls are formed in the image of the Creator. Disabilities, creation, hinders the created soul - as far as I’m aware - due to Original Sin having caused disease. In other words, when a created soul is given to a body, the body - including the brain and other parts of its biological mechanism - can hinder that soul severely from physically free expression. To suggest otherwise hints at the idea that souls are the reflection of the bodily state. I have to take issue with this. I will give you a reason: Our Lady’s “soul magnified the Lord” and her Spirit “…rejoiced”. It was her “soul” that “magnified” the Creator. Her body was rather an outward reflection of the inner beauty of her soul - though in Our Lady’s case she had not suffered from Original Sin and therefore her body was a truer reflection and so in truer union with the soul than us but it was still her soul that gave her body the ability to truely express virginal love in Creation - and therefore, in the case of disabled people, their physical impairments themselves are not in the image of the Creator; rather it is, that their physical impairments reflect the vulnerability of the soul in the midst of Creation thanks to Original Sin and the littleness from which the Creator comes to us, in others - every soul needs love - because the body and Creation reflects this continual need for the Creator and our participation. Souls are to be loved whatever their physical state. You understand?

Thanks for your patience.