Aquinas Question: How are we good and how is God Good

[utunumsint]

Hi All,

This is a spin off thread from other Aquinas related threads that have to do with God’s esse versus created esse and how the two interact. I know there are some who believe that the only esse possible is God’s esse. I disagree, but there is another thread for that conversation.

In this thread, I would like to refocus the conversation on how we are good and how God is good. Specifically, if only God is good, as Jesus himself says in the gospels, then we must be good by participation. Does this really mean that we have no goodness at all? Doe it mean that whatever good act we accomplish is really God’s good act? How are we to properly understand this with regard to the following paradigms:

• potency-act
• God as pure act
• prime matter and form
• tabula rassa and intelligible form
• God who contains all perfect formal exemplars

God bless,
Ut

 

[RedFox0456]

I am having trouble locating it now, but I had read a story from a girl who was visited by her deceased friend. This friend had rejected God and found herself in Hell. Because she was cut off from God, she had no goodness left to her and had nothing but hate. This, combined with Christ’s statement, make me believe that God is indeed the source of all good. It is only because He is with us on Earth that we desire to do good. I am going to look for a link to the story I mentioned.

 

[fhansen]

Hi All,

This is a spin off thread from other Aquinas related threads that have to do with God’s esse versus created esse and how the two interact. I know there are some who believe that the only esse possible is God’s esse. I disagree, but there is another thread for that conversation.

In this thread, I would like to refocus the conversation on how we are good and how God is good. Specifically, if only God is good, as Jesus himself says in the gospels, then we must be good by participation. Does this really mean that we have no goodness at all? Doe it mean that whatever good act we accomplish is really God’s good act? How are we to properly understand this with regard to the following paradigms:

• potency-act
• God as pure act
• prime matter and form
• tabula rassa and intelligible form
• God who contains all perfect formal exemplars

God bless,
Ut

Our very existence, let alone anything else we possess such as qualities or attributes or virtues, comes from God to begin with. Man’s “problem” is that he desires autonomy from God, including the right to determine his own morality, his own “goodness” apart from God. But it can’t happen; the two, God and man, must remain in communion. Man is good to the extent he remains in this relationship, his goodness based on and reflecting God’s.

 

[utunumsint]

I am having trouble locating it now, but I had read a story from a girl who was visited by her deceased friend. This friend had rejected God and found herself in Hell. Because she was cut off from God, she had no goodness left to her and had nothing but hate. This, combined with Christ’s statement, make me believe that God is indeed the source of all good. It is only because He is with us on Earth that we desire to do good. I am going to look for a link to the story I mentioned.

Interesting story. I like your point about how rejecting God meant that she was cut off from God, in the sense that her location in hell was her own choice. But I think this raises other questions, like why does anyone reject God if God is goodness itself? Why can’t they understand that this is the case? Perhaps because they not only reject God, but want to have the good apart from God? Without acknowledging that every good thing comes from God, as the source of all perfections, but because no created thing can approach the perfection of God, we are never ultimately satisfied with partial created good?

Thanks for posting.

God bless,
Ut

 

[utunumsint]

Our very existence, let alone anything else we possess such as qualities or attributes or virtues, comes from God to begin with. Man’s “problem” is that he desires autonomy from God, including the right to determine his own morality, his own “goodness” apart from God. But it can’t happen; the two, God and man, must remain in communion. Man is good to the extent he remains in this relationship, his goodness based on and reflecting God’s.

Good points.

I like your signature by the way: “This is the very perfection of a man, to find out his own imperfections.” - Saint Augustine

This really summarizes the difference between creature and creator. We are always, ultimately, insufficient and imperfect. It is a strange thing that God creates us with a desire for perfection that cannot be met in anything apart from Himself.

Aquinas says this on the subject of God as goodness itself:

I answer that, Goodness and being are really the same, and differ only in idea; which is clear from the following argument. The essence of goodness consists in this, that it is in some way desirable. Hence the Philosopher says (Ethic. i): “Goodness is what all desire.” Now it is clear that a thing is desirable only in so far as it is perfect; for all desire their own perfection. But everything is perfect so far as it is actual. Therefore it is clear that a thing is perfect so far as it exists; for it is existence that makes all things actual, as is clear from the foregoing (Q[3], A[4]; Q[4], A[1]). Hence it is clear that goodness and being are the same really. But goodness presents the aspect of desirableness, which being does not present.

God bless,
Ut

 

[fhansen]

Good points.

I like your signature by the way: “This is the very perfection of a man, to find out his own imperfections.” - Saint Augustine

This really summarizes the difference between creature and creator. We are always, ultimately, insufficient and imperfect. It is a strange thing that God creates us with a desire for perfection that cannot be met in anything apart from Himself.

But is it really strange that perfection cannot be met in anything apart from God? It could be said that animals are “perfect” in the sense that they’re always true to their natures, because they’re never apart from God. But only men and angels have the freedom of will to separate themselves from Him. Maybe it’s strange that God would grant such a will, such freedom to oppose His will, to sin. But obviously He values such a freedom in us. I like what the Catechism says related to this:

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:
By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.

 

[RedFox0456]

Aha! I have found it. The link takes you to a PDF. It is only a couple pages, but it was very good read.

catholicwarfare.com/Warfare/Cry_Lost_Soul.pdf

I have found this thread to be very interesting. I will contribute more when I have more to add. For the time being, I am enjoying the exchanges and the questions they bring to mind.

 

[fhansen]

I think that our perfection/justice lies, to a large degree, in our* willing* it, in our wills being freely aligned with God’s, to the extent we’re able, and not without His help (grace). God didn’t create us to sin, so only our wills stand between us and perfection, the perfection He created us for. We aren’t called to be righteous first of all, however (that’s the Old Covenant); rather with the New Covenant we’re called to communion with God first of all, from whom all righteousness flows, so our righteousness may be authentic. We’re to stop presuming that we don’t need Him in order for this to be realized. IOW, our unrighteousness lies in our self-righteousness, ref. Phil 3:9

 

[utunumsint]

But is it really strange that perfection cannot be met in anything apart from God? It could be said that animals are “perfect” in the sense that they’re always true to their natures, because they’re never apart from God. But only men and angels have the freedom of will to separate themselves from Him. Maybe it’s strange that God would grant such a will, such freedom to oppose His will, to sin. But obviously He values such a freedom in us. I like what the Catechism says related to this:

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:
By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.

True. Very well said.

But I am wondering why the pull of evil seems so strong at time. Greed, gluttony, sloth, pride etc… such that it is not self evident to us that God is our true end, the true object of all desire.

The mystery of sin and evil, I suppose.

God bless,
Ut

 

[utunumsint]

I think that our perfection/justice lies, to a large degree, in our* willing* it, in our wills being freely aligned with God’s, to the extent we’re able, and not without His help (grace). God didn’t create us to sin, so only our wills stand between us and perfection, the perfection He created us for. We aren’t called to be righteous first of all, however (that’s the Old Covenant); rather with the New Covenant we’re called to communion with God first of all, from whom all righteousness flows, so our righteousness may be authentic. We’re to stop presuming that we don’t need Him in order for this to be realized. IOW, our unrighteousness lies in our self-righteousness, ref. Phil 3:9

This is good! This really sums it up well.

And so God, who is act itself, become act in us though grace. The more we go on a path of self-actualization, self-realization, and self-righteousness, the further we depart from the principle of existence. God acting within us.

Evil is then the desire to be and to act, apart from God as though we were the first principle.

God bless,
Ut

 

[RedFox0456]

True. Very well said.

But I am wondering why the pull of evil seems so strong at time. Greed, gluttony, sloth, pride etc… such that it is not self evident to us that God is our true end, the true object of all desire.

The mystery of sin and evil, I suppose.

God bless,
Ut

I’m not convinced it is such a mystery. We know, at least I hope we know, that we have free will. We are tempted to sin by the deceptions of evil. True, we could ask why God allows us to be tempted, but even that has its purpose. In allowing us to be tempted He is allowing us to be tested in the crucible. If we were never tempted and life always easy then what true love or faith have we shown? If, on the other hand, we struggle and suffer and still hold fast to God, is that not showing Him all the more love and devotion?

 

[fhansen]

True. Very well said.

But I am wondering why the pull of evil seems so strong at time. Greed, gluttony, sloth, pride etc… such that it is not self evident to us that God is our true end, the true object of all desire.

Yes, it’s not at all self evident that God is our true end; Adam thought otherwise, even though he “walked with God”, presumably knowing Him more immediately than ourselves. We’re here to learn the hard lessons-that anything other than God are *dead-*ends: greed, gluttony, sloth, pride et al. But the struggle with sin can be grueling; we’re obstinate, and if not for revelation we wouldn’t even know the rules of the game. Adam preferred himself to God the Catechism teaches. Fortunately God is patient with us; we’re a work of His, of the divine Potter. The more we begin to recognize this world and it’s values as a pigsty, relatively speaking, the more malleable clay we become in His hands, and the more fully we turn, like prodigals, back to Him. Hopefully we’re growing in the knowledge of God, coming to learn that “God alone satisfies”, as Aquinas put it.

 

[utunumsint]

Yes, it’s not at all self evident that God is our true end; Adam thought otherwise, even though he “walked with God”, presumably knowing Him more immediately than ourselves. We’re here to learn the hard lessons-that anything other than God are *dead-*ends: greed, gluttony, sloth, pride et al. But the struggle with sin can be grueling; we’re obstinate, and if not for revelation we wouldn’t even know the rules of the game. Adam preferred himself to God the Catechism teaches. Fortunately God is patient with us; we’re a work of His, of the divine Potter. The more we begin to recognize this world and it’s values as a pigsty, relatively speaking, the more malleable clay we become in His hands, and the more fully we turn, like prodigals, back to Him. Hopefully we’re growing in the knowledge of God, coming to learn that “God alone satisfies”, as Aquinas put it.

I’ve been thinking about this. If God did not create something good in us, or love us before creating us, he would have never done so, and would not continue to keep us in existence. Is there a way to properly value the pigsty without setting up idols that compete with God at the same time? In the biblical story of Adam, his sin, and Eve’s sin, is what causes death to enter into the world. Perhaps death, in light of the promise of the resurrection, is God’s way of teaching us to value ourselves in proper measure, and to see our contingency. If this thought is correct, then I wonder if there was no other way to impart this lesson.

God bless,
Ut

 

[utunumsint]

I’m not convinced it is such a mystery. We know, at least I hope we know, that we have free will. We are tempted to sin by the deceptions of evil. True, we could ask why God allows us to be tempted, but even that has its purpose. In allowing us to be tempted He is allowing us to be tested in the crucible. If we were never tempted and life always easy then what true love or faith have we shown? If, on the other hand, we struggle and suffer and still hold fast to God, is that not showing Him all the more love and devotion?

Right. This is a reasonable way of thinking. Temptation exercises our freedom and tests our faithfulness, and if we fail that, then our ability to repent. God seems more impressed with our struggles to please him than with the actual results.

God bless,
Ut

 

[fhansen]

I’ve been thinking about this. If God did not create something good in us, or love us before creating us, he would have never done so, and would not continue to keep us in existence. Is there a way to properly value the pigsty without setting up idols that compete with God at the same time?

Yes, the pigsty is defined by worship of creation over the creator, and creation falls way short relatively speaking. But creation is good, very, very good, and this goodness includes ourselves. Creation only falls-evil only enters the scene- when it separates itself from God. And so the values of the “world”, which we’re not to conform to, are opposed to God, generally speaking. The problem of sin/evil is disorder, good things being abused, and the first good thing that was abused was man’s free will. Pride is inordinate self-love, lust and gluttony are inordinate appetites, otherwise good in themselves, greed is perhaps inordinate desire for security and earthly power or freedom. Man is not God, he’s not all in all; we’re limited in our abilities, and in our needs. But when our wants become greater than our needs then man has overridden the “laws” God has written in his heart or has given expressly as with the first command to Adam. Ironically self-control is lost the moment we try to gain or take over more control than we’re created for. We’re creatures, created beings, not God. So the Catechism has this to say:
396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

Unlike animals, man is obligated to be consciously submitted to God in order to, basically, fully be who he was created to be. Freely meeting that obligation is what our justice consists of. But we cannot meet it unless we know God, unless we meet Him, which is why faith is so crucial as a first step, then we must continue to grow in knowledge of Him, and this knowledge ultimately produces trust (hope), and, most importantly love. When we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves then we know our justice is complete-and obedience comes the right way as we’ve come to recognize the supreme “value” of God-of His wisdom and goodness-of His love. I like what Saint Basil had to say about this:
**If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children. **

This involves a transformation, a change of heart: it’s a work of grace and yet a work which requires our cooperation. This grace of the New Covenant begins with the Atonement where we see definitively demonstrated: God’s existence, His power, His uncompromising trustworthiness and mercy, His immense, unconditional, love for man in spite of our lack of faith, of our mistrust of Him which the Catechism teaches occurred at the fall, of man’s hatred, even, which scripture attests to and which was demonstrated by the passion and crucifixion-in spite of our sin, IOW, sin which He died for, sin which He willingly died an extremely humiliating and painful death as a result of, forgiving us all the while. This act begets a choice for us, instead of forcing us: we’re to come, as we can, from darkness into the light, to recognize this ineffable love, and begin to run to it, rejecting the selfishness and evil that also exists in this world, placing this ultimate Goodness before all else. In this way everything returns to it’s proper place; man and God are reconciled, and the goodness of creation can be truly appreciated as such without inordinately idolizing it. The knowledge of good and evil that man gained at the fall has done it’s job: evil has been rejected, justice/order have been restored and God is all in all again.

 

[StraitGateSheep]

Hello everyone,

I do not know how well I fit in here but I like the thinking and reasoning that is present here.

My compliments are to everyone.

As an independent seeker, as Jesus counseled, not knowing anyone else who was interested,
I have spent years trying to experience the Christianity that I read about.

I had a personal motive that kept me going.

I read about >> Gifts from God: The Gift of Joy, the Gift of Peace, Fruit of the Spirit,
Gift of the Holy Spirit, Spiritual Gifts, Gift of Righteousness, Gift of Salvation,
Gift of Life from God, God’s graciousness >>>

I did not get one single Gift.

I thought that God had rejected me.

I investigated the basics of three other religions and even Atheism.

Christianity was the only one that presented a helper or Savior but I couldn’t reach him.

I put aside everything that I was taught and did a fresh start with the Scriptures.
My thought was that if people died for this message then something must be happening
and that they had a courage that I did not have.
For years I had heard what people thought, that God was saying.
Now I wanted to know what God was saying and what he meant.

Finally, thank the gracious God and his beloved Savior,
I can in all honesty and sincerity say:
‘Jesus lives and he is a very substantial helper to those who find him.’

Jesus has given me a Gift of Prophecy/ edification that is very beneficial
to every single >> ‘God fearing/ respecting, person.

---

Acts.13
[26] Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham,
and whoever among you who >> fears (respects) << God (starting with Jesus),
to you >>(the God fearing) << is the Word of this Salvation (from the Father), sent.

---

I have shared with many others and those who took simple remedial action,
love what they have gotten.
The physical and mental enrichment overflows.
Overall life is totally different in the way it unfolds.

The presence of God is real and stimulates JOY.

As reasoning and personally admired people I offer some food, for thought:

Submissiveness to the Most Wise God: <<

Isa.45…First said by the Prophet Isaiah:
[9] >> Woe (difficulty) to him >> (the Israelite first)
who strives with >> (does not submit to) <<
his Maker! >> (directly the good Jesus, indirectly God our good Father)
Let the potsherd (men) strive with the potsherds (men) of the earth.

Mark.10…Restated by Jesus:
[15] Verily I say to you:
Whoever shall not receive the (invisible) kingdom of >> (the good Father)
as a little child, (submissively/ compliantly), shall not enter therein.

This submission or compliance is called >> stooping down to God
so that >> God may exalt you.

Peter has an detailed commentary:

1 Pet.5
[5] Likewise, you younger, >> submit yourselves to the elder.
Yea, everyone of you (brothers) be subject >> (submissive) one to another
and be clothed with humility >> (the wisdom of submissiveness)
for God (the Father) resists the proud >> (toward his people and hence to himself)
and he, (the Most wise), gives grace to the humble. >> (the wisely submissive)
[6] Humble >> (lower) yourselves therefore,
under (Jesus) the Mighty Hand of God, >> (through the world wide Apostles’ teachings)
that he may exalt (higher) you in due time.

Jesus did a MAJOR stooping DOWN:

Phil.2
[4] Look not every man (self-centeredly) on his own things,
but every man also look on the things of others. (his brothers)
[5] Let this mind be in you,
that was also in Christ Jesus: (the incarnated national God of Israel)
[6] Who, being in the form of God, (in the Temple)
thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation >> (of low esteem/ stooped down)
and took upon himself the form of a servant, >> (to God and to men)
and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] and being found in fashion as a man,
he humbled >> (submitted to God) himself,
and became obedient (to God) to death,
even the death of the cross.
[9] Therefore God also has highly exalted him >> (raised him up from stooping)
and given him a name (a very high dignity)
that is above every name >> (every status among men):
[10] That at the name of Jesus, every knee would bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.

2 Cor.8
[9] For ye know the graciousness of our LORD
Jesus Christ, (the Mighty God of Israel)
that, though he was rich (next to God in heaven),
yet for your sakes he became poor (on the earth),
so that through his poverty you might be rich. (enriched)

Our stooping is much easier and brings much happiness and betterment.
Laughter and rejoicing are also in play.

Pss.126
[1] When the LORD (Jesus) turned again, (liberated)
the captivity of Zion, >> (the Apostles first)
we (of Zion) were like those who dream.
[2] Next our mouth was >> filled with laughter,<<<
and our tongue >> filled with singing >> (merriment)
Then they said among the heathen: (Gentiles)
The LORD (Jesus) has done great things (personally) for them.
[3] The LORD (Jesus)
has done great (superb) things for us; whereof we are glad. >> (ecstatic)
Jesus the wise and gracious son of the wisest and most gracious God, is available.

Using the access, as a little child, is the difficulty.

I can see why people would like to keep this information under wraps, BUT that is illegal to God.
If anyone is interested in making this contact I will do everything to help.

Everyone loves Grace.

Only be aware that I cannot help someone believe, that is a work by the good Father.
I can abundantly, willingly and caringly explain.
I cannot submit to the simple precise >> easy entry for another.

I care and sweat and pain and pray and hope.

Those who move are gifted in multiple ways.

Jesus is underutilized at present.

The Israelite can be a very secretive person.

My heartfelt to all,

StraitGateSheep