Aquinas vs Socrates

[spockrates]

Socrates just can’t win! More than a dozen centuries in the grave and people are still putting him on trial. Soren Kierkegaard, Fredrick Nietzsche and others have taken the witness stand to testify against him. So has our Saint Aquinas, who wrote in Summa Theologica:

This was the opinion of Socrates, who said “every virtue is a kind of prudence,” as stated in [Arstotle’s] *Ethics *vi, 13. Hence he maintained that as long as man is in possession of knowledge, he cannot sin; and that every one who sins, does so through ignorance.

summatheologica.info/summa/questions/?q=177&a=890

So my purpose for this discussion thread (and it does not have to be your purpose) is to discover the answers to two questions:

1. 
   *]Did Socrates really believe it is impossible for a wise person to sin?
   
   *]Is it actually possible for a wise person to sin?
   
   Please feel free to join the discussion at any time. All thoughts are welcome.
   
   

 

[smichhertz]

I suppose it would depend on your definition of “ignorance”. In other words: Ignorant of what?

Theoretically, if we could all perfectly see sin for what it was, we’d never commit it. Because we are imperfect, we do not and often do commit it.

So I suppose in that way, all sin is the result of ignorance. But I feel like you could substitute a lot of different words there and get the same result: Selfishness, Pride, Greed, etc.

I think the simpler thing to say it is sin is when we put anything before God, but I certainly can see Socrates’ point.

 

[PietroPaolo]

1. 
   *]Did Socrates really believe it is impossible for a wise person to sin?
   
   *]Is it actually possible for a wise person to sin?
   
   

1. 1. It’s hard to say with certainty as Socrates didn’t leave behind writings on his own and his followers seemed to have used him to forward their own ideas a bit, but if we believe Aristotle on this (and I do) then yes, he believed this.
   2. Yes. Sin is an act of the will and we even a wise person can, in fact does, sin. John tells us we all sin, this would include the wise (cf 1 John 1:8). Our apetites are disordered so we can will to do something we know is evil, something we all do so we know this is true from experience. Further, Satan certainly knew rejecting God was wrong, yet he (and many other knowledgable angels) chose to sin. If angels can choose to sin despite their knowledge that what they are doing is wrong, why wouldn’t we be able to?

 

[Ed_Silvia]

“Did Socrates really believe it is impossible for a wise person to sin?
Is it actually possible for a wise person to sin?”

I can see how an intellectual may at least say this.

Was there a wiser man than Solomon? Did he sin?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

The only way Socrates’ view can stand is if he did not believe that people (even wise men) can lie to themselves. A person who robs a bank has to know he is committing a sin. It doesn’t matter. He tells himself a lie, that the greatest good he can have is not innocence, but rather pockets full of stolen money.

So knowledge of what is evil does not prevent us from being evil. Knowledge of good also does not prevent us from being evil.

 

[belorg]

http://www.thefoxgazette.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Socrates-death.jpg

Socrates just can’t win! More than a dozen centuries in the grave and people are still putting him on trial. Soren Kierkegaard, Fredrick Nietzsche and others have taken the witness stand to testify against him. So has our Saint Aquinas, who wrote in Summa Theologica:

This was the opinion of Socrates, who said “every virtue is a kind of prudence,” as stated in [Arstotle’s] *Ethics *vi, 13. Hence he maintained that as long as man is in possession of knowledge, he cannot sin; and that every one who sins, does so through ignorance.

summatheologica.info/summa/questions/?q=177&a=890

So my purpose for this discussion thread (and it does not have to be your purpose) is to discover the answers to two questions:

1. 
   *]Did Socrates really believe it is impossible for a wise person to sin?

1. 
   He probably did believe it.
   

   *]Is it actually possible for a wise person to sin?

   For a perfectly wise person? No, it isn’t.
   Of course there is no such thing as a perfectly wise person.

 

[spockrates]

I suppose it would depend on your definition of “ignorance”. In other words: Ignorant of what?

Thanks for posting, smichhertz. I suppose the answer to your question is ignorance of right and wrong.

Theoretically, if we could all perfectly see sin for what it was, we’d never commit it. Because we are imperfect, we do not and often do commit it.

Do you mean if we knew sin was wrong we would not commit it? Or do you mean if we really knew the consequences of such sin we would not commit it?

So I suppose in that way, all sin is the result of ignorance. But I feel like you could substitute a lot of different words there and get the same result: Selfishness, Pride, Greed, etc.

Perhaps, then selfishness, pride, greed and the like are different kinds of ignorance.

I think the simpler thing to say it is sin is when we put anything before God, but I certainly can see Socrates’ point.

I agree.

 

[spockrates]

1. It’s hard to say with certainty as Socrates didn’t leave behind writings on his own and his followers seemed to have used him to forward their own ideas a bit, but if we believe Aristotle on this (and I do) then yes, he believed this.

I appreciate the post, PietroPaolo. Please tell me why you believe Aristotle.

1. Yes. Sin is an act of the will and we even a wise person can, in fact does, sin. John tells us we all sin, this would include the wise (cf 1 John 1:8). Our apetites are disordered so we can will to do something we know is evil, something we all do so we know this is true from experience. Further, Satan certainly knew rejecting God was wrong, yet he (and many other knowledgable angels) chose to sin. If angels can choose to sin despite their knowledge that what they are doing is wrong, why wouldn’t we be able to?

Well, I’m not so sure Satan would agree with you that what he does is wrong, but what do I know?



But I must admit that I see the wisdom of your words. I’m pretty sure that things that I do are wrong, and yet I still do them. What do you think is the you think disconnect between what we know (cognition) and what we do (volition)?

 

[spockrates]

“Did Socrates really believe it is impossible for a wise person to sin?
Is it actually possible for a wise person to sin?”

I can see how an intellectual may at least say this.

Was there a wiser man than Solomon? Did he sin?

Thanks for the reply, Ed. Yes, Jesus himself mentions Solomon’s wisdom:

“The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the people of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom; and now something greater than Solomon is here.”

(Luke 11:31)

Yet even Solomon admits he did foolish things:

7 I bought male and female slaves and had other slaves who were born in my house. I also owned more herds and flocks than anyone in Jerusalem before me. 8 I amassed silver and gold for myself, and the treasure of kings and provinces. I acquired male and female singers, and a harem[a] as well—the delights of a man’s heart. 9 I became greater by far than anyone in Jerusalem before me. In all this my wisdom stayed with me.

(Ecclesiastes 2)

Do you think, then that a shamefully sinful fool can, at the same time be remarkably wise?

 

[spockrates]

The only way Socrates’ view can stand is if he did not believe that people (even wise men) can lie to themselves. A person who robs a bank has to know he is committing a sin. It doesn’t matter. He tells himself a lie, that the greatest good he can have is not innocence, but rather pockets full of stolen money.

So knowledge of what is evil does not prevent us from being evil. Knowledge of good also does not prevent us from being evil.

How are you doing, Charemagne?



I think he actually did believe in self-deception, and was of the opinion he was not immune:

I have long been wondering at my own wisdom ; I cannot trust myself. And I think that I ought to stop and ask myself What am I saying ? for there is nothing worse than self-deception when the deceiver is always at home and always with you it is quite terrible!

(Cratylus)

But please explain why disbelieving in self-deception is the only way Socrates would not be deceived about this.

 

[spockrates]

He probably did believe it.

Glad you responded, Belorg.

I’m not convinced he did–at least not yet!

For a perfectly wise person? No, it isn’t.
Of course there is no such thing as a perfectly wise person.

How do you know such a person does not exist?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates
**
But please explain why disbelieving in self-deception is the only way Socrates would not be deceived about this.**

I’m getting confused here, I think. I’ll pass on the question.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates
**
But please explain why disbelieving in self-deception is the only way Socrates would not be deceived about this.**

I’m getting confused here, I think. I’ll pass on the question.

No problem, and sorry for being my usual clear as mud! I’m wondering why you believe Socrates’ belief cannot stand.

 

[spockrates]

But if you’d rather not answer, I understand. Like Socrates, “I have, I fear, a tedious way of putting a simple question!” (Theaetetus).

 

[Ed_Silvia]

Do you think, then that a shamefully sinful fool can, at the same time be remarkably wise?

I don’t think so. I hope to see Solomon in Eternity to ask him though

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates

**I’m wondering why you believe Socrates’ belief cannot stand. **

There was only one man who was perfectly wise and perfectly sinless. You know Who.

The wisdom of Solomon did not prevent his becoming a sinner.

I fear I am repeating an earlier post in this thread.

 

[PietroPaolo]

But I must admit that I see the wisdom of your words. I’m pretty sure that things that I do are wrong, and yet I still do them. What do you think is the you think disconnect between what we know (cognition) and what we do (volition)?

In a word… Concupiscence.

Sin is not a defect in knowledge but of will. In fact a complete lack of knowledge can lead to an inability to sin, aka invincible ignorance. Thus animals and small children or the mentally disabled cannot sin, not b/c they are so wise, but b/c they lack the knowledge to truly will to do evil.

 

[spockrates]

I don’t think so. I hope to see Solomon in Eternity to ask him though

Why put off till Eternity what you might begin to understand today? Let’s see what we know to be true and then try to make logical inferences from these premises:

1. We know that Solomon believed he did not lose his wisdom even though he played the fool:

In all this [foolish sin] my wisdom did not leave me.

(Ecclesiastes 2:9)

1. We know this idea is not the ignorant blathering of an idiot, but the trustworthy words of perhaps the most learned and wise man of the ancient world:

29 God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore. 30 Solomon’s wisdom was greater than the wisdom of all the people of the East, and greater than all the wisdom of Egypt. 31 He was wiser than anyone else, including Ethan the Ezrahite—wiser than Heman, Kalkol and Darda, the sons of Mahol. And his fame spread to all the surrounding nations. 32 He spoke three thousand proverbs and his songs numbered a thousand and five. 33 He spoke about plant life, from the cedar of Lebanon to the hyssop that grows out of walls. He also spoke about animals and birds, reptiles and fish. 34 From all nations people came to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom.

(1Kings 4)

Non was wiser than Solomon, and though he sined greatly, his wisdom remained. So may we still say we are unsure a wise man can behave foolishly and still remain wise?

 

[spockrates]

spockrates

**I’m wondering why you believe Socrates’ belief cannot stand. **

There was only one man who was perfectly wise and perfectly sinless. You know Who.

The wisdom of Solomon did not prevent his becoming a sinner.

I fear I am repeating an earlier post in this thread.

Why fear? We have nothing to lose but our ignorance!



Yes, one would think that no one can be perfect, and so be confident in the fact that he should not expect so much of himself. But then Jesus speaks and confidence turns to wonder:

“Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect.”

(Matthew 5:48)

What I wonder is if you wonder the same: If it is impossible to be as perfectly wise and sinless as God, then why does he command you and I to be just that? Is he setting us up for failure, or is the impossible somehow possible, and we can by some miracle actually be as perfect as God?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates

**If it is impossible to be as perfectly wise and sinless as God, then why does he command you and I to be just that? Is he setting us up for failure, or is the impossible somehow possible, and we can by some miracle actually be as perfect as God? **

“Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” is of course impossible. However, Jesus is using a figure of speech called hyperbole, or exaggeration for effect. If we try to be perfect as God is, we will surely be more perfect than we would otherwise be.

One of the things I like about Jesus’ method of preaching is that he often uses figures of speech, especially metaphors like “Feed my sheep” and “Keys to the kingdom.” Jesus was so much the poet and the philosopher and the holy one all wrapped together.