Aquinas vs Socrates

[spockrates]

In a word… Concupiscence.

Sin is not a defect in knowledge but of will. In fact a complete lack of knowledge can lead to an inability to sin, aka invincible ignorance. Thus animals and small children or the mentally disabled cannot sin, not b/c they are so wise, but b/c they lack the knowledge to truly will to do evil.

Yes, I think Saint Paul would agree with you. For he seems to be saying the same:

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

(Romans 7)

One might say Paul conveys that he is wise in what he knows to be the truth, but foolish in what he does contrary to the truth. But do you think Saint Aquinas is right in thinking Socrates would not agree with Paul?

 

[spockrates]

spockrates

**If it is impossible to be as perfectly wise and sinless as God, then why does he command you and I to be just that? Is he setting us up for failure, or is the impossible somehow possible, and we can by some miracle actually be as perfect as God? **

“Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” is of course impossible. However, Jesus is using a figure of speech called hyperbole, or exaggeration for effect. If we try to be perfect as God is, we will surely be more perfect than we would otherwise be.

One of the things I like about Jesus’ method of preaching is that he often uses figures of speech, especially metaphors like “Feed my sheep” and “Keys to the kingdom.” Jesus was so much the poet and the philosopher and the holy one all wrapped together.

Yes, it certainly seems impossible that one might be perfectly sinless. Socrates seemed to agree:

Whereas, the truth is that God is never in any way unrighteous he is perfect righteousness ; and he of us who is the most righteous is most like him.

(Theatetus)

For he seems to say one might become more like God than another person, but not as perfectly righteous as God. There are, however those who believe such sinless perfection is possible. Have you ever heard of Catholic Thomists?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates.

**Have you ever heard of Catholic Thomists? **

I certainly have. I am one of them.

 

[PietroPaolo]

Hi Spockrates,

This is a bit off topic, but I must admit to being confused as to what you mean by “prodigal Catholic” which you list as your religion. Prodigal, as you know, means to spend recklessly, hence the “prodigal son” from the Gospels is the son who wastes his inheritance through reckless spending. Are you saying your religion is being a Catholic with serious money management problems? Again, sorry that is off topic, but I thought I’d ask.

 

[Ed_Silvia]

Why put off till Eternity what you might begin to understand today? Let’s see what we know to be true and then try to make logical inferences from these premises:

1. We know that Solomon believed he did not lose his wisdom even though he played the fool:

In all this [foolish sin] my wisdom did not leave me.

(Ecclesiastes 2:9)

1. We know this idea is not the ignorant blathering of an idiot, but the trustworthy words of perhaps the most learned and wise man of the ancient world:

29 God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore. 30 Solomon’s wisdom was greater than the wisdom of all the people of the East, and greater than all the wisdom of Egypt. 31 He was wiser than anyone else, including Ethan the Ezrahite—wiser than Heman, Kalkol and Darda, the sons of Mahol. And his fame spread to all the surrounding nations. 32 He spoke three thousand proverbs and his songs numbered a thousand and five. 33 He spoke about plant life, from the cedar of Lebanon to the hyssop that grows out of walls. He also spoke about animals and birds, reptiles and fish. 34 From all nations people came to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom.

(1Kings 4)

Non was wiser than Solomon, and though he sinned greatly, his wisdom remained. So may we still say we are unsure a wise man can behave foolishly and still remain wise?

In his old age, his wives turned away Solomon’s heart after other gods. (1 Kings 11:4-5).

I’ve thought about him often and don’t know how Solomon allowed it to happen but I read this before Mass on Sunday and think it applies at least to me.
Sirach 3 : 22 Seek not the things that are too high for thee, and search not into things above thy ability: but the things that God hath commanded thee, think on them always, and in many of his works be not curious. 23 For it is not necessary for thee to see with thy eyes those things that are hid.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates.

**Have you ever heard of Catholic Thomists? **

I certainly have. I am one of them.

It is a pleasure to know you! I hope you will confirm something I heard on Catholic Answers. A priest on the radio program said Thomists believe it is actually possible in extremely rare cases for a man or woman to achieve a state of sinlessness in this life. Thomist believe some saints have actually accomplished this, the priest said. Is this what you, or some other advocates of Thomism whom you know really believe?

 

[spockrates]

Hi Spockrates,

This is a bit off topic, but I must admit to being confused as to what you mean by “prodigal Catholic” which you list as your religion. Prodigal, as you know, means to spend recklessly, hence the “prodigal son” from the Gospels is the son who wastes his inheritance through reckless spending. Are you saying your religion is being a Catholic with serious money management problems? Again, sorry that is off topic, but I thought I’d ask.

My thought in describing myself so was that I am a prodigal in a broader sense. For I was baptised, raised Catholic and confirmed in the faith, but like the prodigal son in the parable, I left home (the Church). After dining on pig scraps for do long, I long to return home, but am unsure how to go about it.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates

** Is this what you, or some other advocates of Thomism whom you know really believe? **

I wish you could remember this priest’s name. I think maybe he said something close to what you describe, but perhaps not exactly.

Except for Jesus and his mother, Catholics believe we are all born with original sin. Completely sinless we cannot be. The effect of original sin is that we are susceptible to actual (willful) sin. To be a saint one must strive for sanctity. This is a long and arduous struggle. Some do better than others. I know of no saint who has ever claimed to be sinless. I think such a claim would even be suspect of self deception and a lack of humility.

How could on ever claim that he ever knew of a sinless person without living that person’s life?

 

[spockrates]

In his old age, his wives turned away Solomon’s heart after other gods. (1 Kings 11:4-5).

I’ve thought about him often and don’t know how Solomon allowed it to happen but I read this before Mass on Sunday and think it applies at least to me.
Sirach 3 : 22 Seek not the things that are too high for thee, and search not into things above thy ability: but the things that God hath commanded thee, think on them always, and in many of his works be not curious. 23 For it is not necessary for thee to see with thy eyes those things that are hid.

I can appreciate that. Socrates also had some experiences where he wanted to ask some about the wisdom they knew, but he said his God sometimes would not allow him to speak to them.



But regarding the passage you mentioned, does all of it apply to you, or only part of it? I mean, it’s a do not, but it’s also a do: Do not seek the truth God does not want you to know yet, but do seek the truth God commands you to learn. So what truth does God want you to discover instead of the truth about how Solomon could sin and still remain wise? I open to seeking that truth, if you are.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates

** Is this what you, or some other advocates of Thomism whom you know really believe? **

I wish you could remember this priest’s name. I think maybe he said something close to what you describe, but perhaps not exactly.

Except for Jesus and his mother, Catholics believe we are all born with original sin. Completely sinless we cannot be. The effect of original sin is that we are susceptible to actual (willful) sin. To be a saint one must strive for sanctity. This is a long and arduous struggle. Some do better than others. I know of no saint who has ever claimed to be sinless. I think such a claim would even be suspect of self deception and a lack of humility.

How could on ever claim that he ever knew of a sinless person without living that person’s life?

I suppose it is possible I misunderstood what the priest said. At the time I was so astonished at what I heard that I continue to remember the event to this day.

Are you saying, then that the Thomists you know do not know of any saint who, by the power of God’s grace, became sanctified to the point where she ceased sinning? Are there no Thomists who think this is even theoretically possible?

 

[spockrates]

spockrates

** Is this what you, or some other advocates of Thomism whom you know really believe? **

I wish you could remember this priest’s name. I think maybe he said something close to what you describe, but perhaps not exactly.

Except for Jesus and his mother, Catholics believe we are all born with original sin. Completely sinless we cannot be. The effect of original sin is that we are susceptible to actual (willful) sin. To be a saint one must strive for sanctity. This is a long and arduous struggle. Some do better than others. I know of no saint who has ever claimed to be sinless. I think such a claim would even be suspect of self deception and a lack of humility.

How could on ever claim that he ever knew of a sinless person without living that person’s life?

 

[spockrates]

http://saints.sqpn.com/stt03006.jpg

Charlemagne:

Before you answer, let us consider these words of a Thomist I just found:

Chapter 52: Christian Perfection

Perfection, so we are taught by the Gospel and St. Paul, means perfection in charity. “Every being,” says St. Thomas, [1292] “is perfect when it attains its final goal. But charity unites us to God, the goal of all human life, a truth expressed by St. John’s word on him who abides in God and God in him. Hence charity constitutes the life of Christian perfection.” Faith and hope, since they can coexist with mortal sin, cannot constitute perfection. Nor can infused moral perfections, since they are concerned with the roads that lead to God, and hence are meritorious only so far as they are vivified by charity, which is their animating principle.

“Perfection,” St. Thomas [1293] continues, “lies principally in love of God, secondarily in love of neighbor, and only accidentally in the evangelical counsels,” obedience, chastity, and poverty, which are unprescribed instruments of perfection. Hence perfection can be attained without literal observance of the counsels, in the state, say, of matrimony, though the spirit of the counsels, i. e.: detachment from worldliness, is necessary for perfection in any state. The advantage of literal observance of the counsels lies in this: they are the most sure and rapid road whereby to reach sanctity.

(REALITY—A Synthesis Of Thomistic Thought
Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O. P.)

ewtn.com/library/theology/reality.htm#52

The author seems to believe Thomas Aquinas taught us that by love one can indeed be made perfect! But perhaps he is misunderstanding the esteemed critic of Socrates?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates

** Are there no Thomists who think this is even theoretically possible? **

I’ve certainly not read all the work of all the Thomists, so I can’t reasonably answer this.

Certainly it is possible that some Thomists might allow that some saints (especially later in life) may acquire and remain in a sinless state, but that is different from saying they have never been in a state of sin. I suspect (can’t say this with authority since I am far from being a saint) that the sin all saints would have to fight constantly is the sin of spiritual pride. Anybody who joyfully anticipates the possibility of being canonized is already in trouble.

**The author seems to believe Thomas Aquinas taught us that by love one can indeed be made perfect! **

Yes, Aquinas is in line with Saint Paul in I Corinthians 13

But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates

** Are there no Thomists who think this is even theoretically possible? **

I’ve certainly not read all the work of all the Thomists, so I can’t reasonably answer this.

Certainly it is possible that some Thomists might allow that some saints (especially later in life) may acquire and remain in a sinless state, but that is different from saying they have never been in a state of sin. I suspect (can’t say this with authority since I am far from being a saint) that the sin all saints would have to fight constantly is the sin of spiritual pride. Anybody who joyfully anticipates the possibility of being canonized is already in trouble.

**The author seems to believe Thomas Aquinas taught us that by love one can indeed be made perfect! **

Yes, Aquinas is in line with Saint Paul in I Corinthians 13

But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Yes, and I suppose that such saints who achieve the impossible of becoming perfectly sinless would be the first to agree with Jesus, who said:

“With man, this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible!”

(Matthew 19:26)



So do you think, as I do, that the saint who attains such humanly impossible perfection is wise indeed?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**So do you think, as I do, that the saint who attains such humanly impossible perfection is wise indeed? **

Yes. It is wise to be holy. I can’t think of any higher wisdom.

In fact, of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit received at Confirmation, Wisdom is listed first.

Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety and Fear of the Lord

 

[spockrates]

**So do you think, as I do, that the saint who attains such humanly impossible perfection is wise indeed? **

Yes. It is wise to be holy. I can’t think of any higher wisdom.

In fact, of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit received at Confirmation, Wisdom is listed first.

Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety and Fear of the Lord

And a wonderful gift it is that might show one how to become so perfect!



Do you also think, as I do, that the saint who is wise enough to become perfect would also be wise enough to remain perfect?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Do you also think, as I do, that the saint who is wise enough to become perfect would also be wise enough to remain perfect?

Interesting question. I should think so. Once you have attained a certain state of innocence, wouldn’t it be rather difficult (though perhaps not impossible) to backslide? This is one of those questions that cannot be answered definitively for all human beings. Some have more grace and will power than others, and the devil may well be more persistent with some than with others.

 

[spockrates]

Do you also think, as I do, that the saint who is wise enough to become perfect would also be wise enough to remain perfect?

Interesting question. I should think so. Once you have attained a certain state of innocence, wouldn’t it be rather difficult (though perhaps not impossible) to backslide? This is one of those questions that cannot be answered definitively for all human beings. Some have more grace and will power than others, and the devil may well be more persistent with some than with others.

Yes, I should think so, too. I also think one so wise as those rare sinless saints would cease to be wise, were she to backslide. For backsliding is foolish, which is the opposite of wise. Don’t you agree?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates
**
For backsliding is foolish, which is the opposite of wise. Don’t you agree? **

Yes. Wise men can sometimes be foolish, as in the case of Solomon, but saints usually are not.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates
**
For backsliding is foolish, which is the opposite of wise. Don’t you agree? **

Yes. Wise men can sometimes be foolish, as in the case of Solomon, but saints usually are not.

Yes, I think so. So are we now surprised to learn that for these sinless saints, Jesus’ command, “Be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect,” is not hyperbole, but is instead reality? For being perfect in regard to sinlessness is a command they can (if only by the wisdom and power of God) in reality obey!