Aquinas vs Socrates

[spockrates]

spockrates

**What do you think of this definition? Are we getting closer to the full truth about what a wise person is? **

Absotively!

So a person who has wisdom enough to know the difference between right and wrong but chooses to say, think or do wrong is not wise, but is instead unwise?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates

**So a person who has wisdom enough to know the difference between right and wrong but chooses to say, think or do wrong is not wise, but is instead unwise? **

No, he is unvirtuous.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates

**So a person who has wisdom enough to know the difference between right and wrong but chooses to say, think or do wrong is not wise, but is instead unwise? **

No, he is unvirtuous.

That he is, if we may may make up such a word. I say, why not make it up?



And would you say it is wise or unwise to be unvirtuous?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates

**And would you say it is wise or unwise to be unvirtuous? **

Surely a lapse in wisdom. But even more so a lapse in the courage to be good.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates

**And would you say it is wise or unwise to be unvirtuous? **

Surely a lapse in wisdom. But even more so a lapse in the courage to be good.

But keep in mind the definition of a wise person we are considering: A wise person is one who does not have a lapse wisdom and lives according to the wisdom he has. An unwise person can be one who either (1) has a lapse in wisdom, or one who (2) does not have a lapse in wisdom but chooses not to live according to the wisdom he has. Should we throw out this definition as untrue, or continue to consider it?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates

But keep in mind the definition of a wise person we are considering: A wise person is one who does not have a lapse wisdom and lives according to the wisdom he has.

Oh, I think a wise person can definitely have a lapse in wisdom. Sickness, grief, weariness, hunger etc. can all contribute to a lapse in wisdom. Also, I don’t think we always live according to the wisdom we have for lack of courage to do so.

**An unwise person can be one who either (1) has a lapse in wisdom, or one who (2) does not have a lapse in wisdom but chooses not to live according to the wisdom he has. Should we throw out this definition as untrue, or continue to consider it? **

We might continue to consider it.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates

But keep in mind the definition of a wise person we are considering: A wise person is one who does not have a lapse wisdom and lives according to the wisdom he has.

Oh, I think a wise person can definitely have a lapse in wisdom. Sickness, grief, weariness, hunger etc. can all contribute to a lapse in wisdom.

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If wisdom is the truth one knows by cognition and not the actions one takes by volition, then yes, I agree that a sickness effecting the brain, such as Alzheimer’s would cause a lack in what one knows, and so a lapse of wisdom. People severely deprived of sleep also seem to experience a difficulty remembering the truth they know, and so, they appear to have a temporary lapse of wisdom. I suppose there is also scientific evidence to support hunger and grief effecting one’s ability to recall the truth she knows, too. So yes, I agree.

Also, I don’t think we always live according to the wisdom we have for lack of courage to do so.

Agreed. The film Saving Private Ryan has a disturbing example of one not doing what he knows he should do out of cowardice. But are you thinking every failure to act according to what one knows he should do is caused by fear? Or do you think there are other motivators that tempt one to act unwisely?

**An unwise person can be one who either (1) has a lapse in wisdom, or one who (2) does not have a lapse in wisdom but chooses not to live according to the wisdom he has. Should we throw out this definition as untrue, or continue to consider it? **

We might continue to consider it.

Agreed. So to be sure we are on the same page, do you concur that there is indeed a difference between a wise person and the wisdom she knows? The wisdom she knows is mere cognition, which involves knowing the truth and agreeing that it is true. What makes one wise is not merely the truth she knows and accepts, but also the actions she takes to live according to that truth. That is, both cognition and volition is required to become wise. For acting foolishly when one knows better makes one become fool, and one who becomes a fool is unwise.

If you agree, then we may see what actions we should reap from these seeds of wisdom we have sown.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates

Agreed. The film Saving Private Ryan has a disturbing example of one not doing what he knows he should do out of cowardice. But are you thinking every failure to act according to what one knows he should do is caused by fear? Or do you think there are other motivators that tempt one to act unwisely?

Another motive than fear would be laziness or apathy. Lack of fortitude. Scott Peck in his book *The Road Less Traveled * puts great emphasis on laziness or apathy as the source of many types of neurosis or unsound judgments.

A person who is normally wise might also get to the point of being overconfident in his wisdom. He might cease to edit his own insights. Or, as the writer Hemingway phrased it, he may get his automatic sh-t detector turned off.

Agreed. So to be sure we are on the same page, do you concur that there is indeed a difference between a wise person and the wisdom she knows? The wisdom she knows is mere cognition, which involves knowing the truth and agreeing that it is true.

We can obtain wisdom by mere cognition, such as by studying the Bible or philosophers. But wisdom is not by itself mere cognition, or recognition of the wisdom of others. It is also the power of personal insight or discovery about the truth or about good and evil.

**That is, both cognition and volition is required to become wise. **

Right. What good is cognition without volition? But volition resides in the will, not in the intellect. As we noticed about the wise man Solomon, much cognition but little will power.
Too easily seduced by his own passions.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates

Agreed. The film Saving Private Ryan has a disturbing example of one not doing what he knows he should do out of cowardice. But are you thinking every failure to act according to what one knows he should do is caused by fear? Or do you think there are other motivators that tempt one to act unwisely?

Another motive than fear would be laziness or apathy. Lack of fortitude. Scott Peck in his book *The Road Less Traveled * puts great emphasis on laziness or apathy as the source of many types of neurosis or unsound judgments.

A person who is normally wise might also get to the point of being overconfident in his wisdom. He might cease to edit his own insights. Or, as the writer Hemingway phrased it, he may get his automatic sh-t detector turned off.

Agreed. So to be sure we are on the same page, do you concur that there is indeed a difference between a wise person and the wisdom she knows? The wisdom she knows is mere cognition, which involves knowing the truth and agreeing that it is true.

We can obtain wisdom by mere cognition, such as by studying the Bible or philosophers. But wisdom is not by itself mere cognition, or recognition of the wisdom of others. It is also the power of personal insight or discovery about the truth or about good and evil.

**That is, both cognition and volition is required to become wise. **

Right. What good is cognition without volition? But volition resides in the will, not in the intellect. As we noticed about the wise man Solomon, much cognition but little will power.
Too easily seduced by his own passions.

Yes, we are definitely on the same page. So now do you see how it is impossible for a wise man to sin?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates

**Yes, we are definitely on the same page. So now do you see how it is impossible for a wise man to sin? **

No. You should explain that to me, since I’ve already made clear that you can have wisdom without volition for good or volition against evil…

Nature endows men with different talents. The wise man often has wisdom but no power of volition to speak of. The man with power of volition often has no wisdom. If you can put them together, they can be explosive and fabulous. If they never get together, they both fizzle and fail. Great wisdom and volition rarely exist in the same man. Christ was such a man, but he had the advantage of also being God. Solomon was also such a man, but he sinned greatly.

 

[Tercon]

Socrates just can’t win! More than a dozen centuries in the grave and people are still putting him on trial. Soren Kierkegaard, Fredrick Nietzsche and others have taken the witness stand to testify against him. So has our Saint Aquinas, who wrote in Summa Theologica:

This was the opinion of Socrates, who said “every virtue is a kind of prudence,” as stated in [Arstotle’s] *Ethics *vi, 13. Hence he maintained that as long as man is in possession of knowledge, he cannot sin; and that every one who sins, does so through ignorance.

summatheologica.info/summa/questions/?q=177&a=890

So my purpose for this discussion thread (and it does not have to be your purpose) is to discover the answers to two questions:

1. 
   *]Did Socrates really believe it is impossible for a wise person to sin?
   
   *]Is it actually possible for a wise person to sin?
   
   Please feel free to join the discussion at any time. All thoughts are welcome.
   
   

1. 
   It is impossible for a righteous person to sin while they are being righteous.
   
   Blesssings

 

[spockrates]

spockrates

**Yes, we are definitely on the same page. So now do you see how it is impossible for a wise man to sin? **

No. You should explain that to me, since I’ve already made clear that you can have wisdom without volition for good or volition against evil…

http://ak.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/3357947/preview/stock-footage-woman-s-feet-in-stream.jpg

Yes, but notice what I did not say: I did not say a man who has wisdom cannot sin. I said a wise man cannot sin. There is an Ancient Greek philosopher who lived about 200 years before Socrates. His name was Heraclitus of Ephesus, and he said:

A man cannot step into the same river twice.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclitus

What at first sounds absurd makes sense after some consideration. The reason it is impossible for the same person to step in the same river twice is because when she steps in the river a second time it is not the same, and neither is she! Both have changed. You see?

The same applies to a person who was wise who sins. As soon as she sins, she is not the same person. For she is no longer wise, but an unwise fool. It is the unwise who sins, never the wise. For even one with extraordinary wisdom transforms into one of the unwise fools when she sins.

Are your eyes opened now?

Nature endows men with different talents. The wise man often has wisdom but no power of volition to speak of. The man with power of volition often has no wisdom. If you can put them together, they can be explosive and fabulous. If they never get together, they both fizzle and fail. Great wisdom and volition rarely exist in the same man. Christ was such a man, but he had the advantage of also being God. Solomon was also such a man, but he sinned greatly.

Yes, Christ was wise not merely because he had wisdom, but instead because he had wisdom and never sinned.

 

[spockrates]

It is impossible for a righteous person to sin while they are being righteous.

Blesssings

Welcome, Tercon.



In other words, would you say it is impossible for a wise man to sin while he is being wise?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates

**The same applies to a person who was wise who sins. As soon as she sins, she is not the same person. For she is no longer wise, but an unwise fool. It is the unwise who sins, never the wise. For even one with extraordinary wisdom transforms into one of the unwise fools when she sins.

Are your eyes opened now?**

I guess not! For I believe even wise men have sinned when they did not have the fortitude to resist sin. We may have wisdom, but still lack the courage to be good. You are still confusing wisdom with fortitude. They are two separate virtues.

Are your eyes opened now?

 

[spockrates]

spockrates

**The same applies to a person who was wise who sins. As soon as she sins, she is not the same person. For she is no longer wise, but an unwise fool. It is the unwise who sins, never the wise. For even one with extraordinary wisdom transforms into one of the unwise fools when she sins.

Are your eyes opened now?**

I guess not! For I believe even wise men have sinned when they did not have the fortitude to resist sin. We may have wisdom, but still lack the courage to be good. You are still confusing wisdom with fortitude. They are two separate virtues.

Are your eyes opened now?

Nope. Not yet.



How do you define fortitude and how does it differ from wisdom? I think you are saying a person who has wisdom to know what is right might still not have the courage to do what is right. Am I misunderstanding?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates

How do you define fortitude and how does it differ from wisdom? I think you are saying a person who has wisdom to know what is right might still not have the courage to do what is right.

Exactly! Solomon’s dilemma.

Below are two definitions, one of fortitude and the other of wisdom, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They are obviously not identical. You can have one and not the other. You can have one and reject the other. Solomon apparently rejected fortitude, or “the resolve to resist temptations and to overcome obstacles in the moral life.” He lacked courage in that he refused to fight his temptations.

1808 Fortitude is the moral virtue that ensures firmness in difficulties and constancy in the pursuit of the good. It strengthens the resolve to resist temptations and to overcome obstacles in the moral life. The virtue of fortitude enables one to conquer fear, even fear of death, and to face trials and persecutions. It disposes one even to renounce and sacrifice his life in defense of a just cause. "The Lord is my strength and my song."70 “In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

1954 Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good. The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie:

 

[spockrates]

spockrates

How do you define fortitude and how does it differ from wisdom? I think you are saying a person who has wisdom to know what is right might still not have the courage to do what is right.

Exactly! Solomon’s dilemma.

Below are two definitions, one of fortitude and the other of wisdom, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They are obviously not identical. You can have one and not the other. You can have one and reject the other. Solomon apparently rejected fortitude, or “the resolve to resist temptations and to overcome obstacles in the moral life.” He lacked courage in that he refused to fight his temptations.

1808 Fortitude is the moral virtue that ensures firmness in difficulties and constancy in the pursuit of the good. It strengthens the resolve to resist temptations and to overcome obstacles in the moral life. The virtue of fortitude enables one to conquer fear, even fear of death, and to face trials and persecutions. It disposes one even to renounce and sacrifice his life in defense of a just cause. "The Lord is my strength and my song."70 “In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

1954 Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good. The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie:

Then is a person wise or unwise who possesses wisdom to know the good she should do but lacks the fortitude to do the good she knows she should do?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates
**
Then is a person wise or unwise who possesses wisdom to know the good she should do but lacks the fortitude to do the good she knows she should do? **

She is wise in the sense that she is wise to herself. As was Solomon when he finally repented of his mighty works.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates
**
Then is a person wise or unwise who possesses wisdom to know the good she should do but lacks the fortitude to do the good she knows she should do? **

She is wise in the sense that she is wise to herself. As was Solomon when he finally repented of his mighty works.

I think you misunderstand my question, my good friend.



You see, I did not ask if she was wise after she repents. I asked if she was wise before she repents. Is one who has wisdom to know what she should do but lacks the fortitude to do what she should do wise or unwise?

Consider a Catholic woman who has an unwanted pregnancy. She also has wisdom to know abortion is wrong, but she does not have the fortitude to go through with the pregnancy. She goes to a clinic to have the abortion she knows she should not have. Is she, at that moment wise or unwise?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

spockrates

**She goes to a clinic to have the abortion she knows she should not have. Is she, at that moment wise or unwise? **

She has the wisdom to know that abortion is wrong, but not the fortitude to uphold her wisdom. As did Solomon have the wisdom to know what was right but not the fortitude to resist evil.

Are we parroting ourselves by now?