Aramaic

[BusterMartin]

I was just wondering if there are any DL’s in the US that speak entirely in Aramaic. Also, if there is one, where would it be located? I did a Google search and a search on here, but I couldn’t find anything. Thanks!!

 

[jimmy]

I was just wondering if there are any DL’s in the US that speak entirely in Aramaic. Also, if there is one, where would it be located? I did a Google search and a search on here, but I couldn’t find anything. Thanks!!

I think the Chaldeans do. Maybe in San Diego.

 

[Cecilianus]

It’s the liturgical language for the Maronite Church - you could try there. I know the one in Minneapolis only uses Aramaic for a few parts, like the Trisagion and probably the Consecration (some parts are in Arabic).

 

[puzzleannie]

try Chaldean churches in the Detroit area

 

[malphono]

Yes, the Chaldeans would probably be your best bet, particularly the Diocese of St Peter (San Diego). If you’re looking for something in the SE PA area, you might consider contacting the pastor of St Sharbel Maronite Church (3679 Providence Road, Newtown Square, PA 19073 Phone: (610) 353-5952). He would probably know if there is anything in the area and just might be able to point you in the right direction. If anything turns up, it would be nice if you could post it here.

 

[BusterMartin]

Thanks, everyone! If I ever take a trip to those places, I’ll give them a shot. Until then, I’ll try calling St. Sharbel’s and if I found out details I’ll post here.

 

[AndrewRaZ]

Yep, the Eparchy of St. Thomas in and around Detroit speaks Aramaic. The seminarians for that diocese learn Aramaic instead of Latin. I’m not sure if it’s offered here at Sacred Heart, or if it is taught somewhere else.

I know you’re in Pennsylvania, but here’s the link to the diocese website.

I hope you find a parish closer to you though. Good luck, and God bless you.

Caritas.

 

[Ex_aedibus]

As far as the Maronite Rite goes, the bulk of the liturgy tends either to be in Arabic or English depending on the makeup of the congregation. Syriac is often used at the beginning at the entrance dialogue and almost always at the consecration and epiclesis. However, I’m not aware of all Syriac liturgies in the Maronite Rite today.

 

[malphono]

As far as the Maronite Rite goes, the bulk of the liturgy tends either to be in Arabic or English depending on the makeup of the congregation. Syriac is often used at the beginning at the entrance dialogue and almost always at the consecration and epiclesis. However, I’m not aware of all Syriac liturgies in the Maronite Rite today.

It’s theoretically possible, but I am not aware of it in the US. While I can’t say about elsewhere in the diaspora, it can and does happen (occasionally, anyway), at least in the Patriarchal Territories. The when and where depends on the priest, diocese, church (or monastery), etc. It’s quite the same situation as ad orientem.

 

[dzheremi]

Here is the Syriac Maronite liturgy in Syriac. Please forgive the poor sound quality in places. It is much more difficult than it should be to find a recording of the Maronite liturgy that is actually in Syriac (though I thought I heard a little bit of Arabic here and there; e.g. the beginning of part 6).

teshmeshto dqurbono d’eeto suryoyto morunoyto P1

teshmeshto dqurbono d’eeto suryoyto morunoyto P2

teshmeshto dqurbono d’eeto suryoyto morunoyto P3

teshmeshto dqurbono d’eeto suryoyto morunoyto P4

teshmeshto dqurbono d’eeto suryoyto morunoyto P5

teshmeshto dqurbono d’eeto suryoyto morunoyto P6

teshmeshto dqurbono d’eeto suryoyto morunoyto P7

 

[malphono]

Here is the Syriac Maronite liturgy in Syriac. Please forgive the poor sound quality in places. It is much more difficult than it should be to find a recording of the Maronite liturgy that is actually in Syriac (though I thought I heard a little bit of Arabic here and there; e.g. the beginning of part 6).

That’s just about the only complete recording that I’ve encountered too. And yes, there is a bit of Arabic here and there, but it’s (thankfully) minor. Notice that the readings and even the sermon were done in Syriac. BTW, it was done by the Antonine Monks (OAM) who offer lessons in Syriac in several places in Lebanon. (Not that it matters, but I know at least one of the concelebrants personally.)

One caveat about this recording: although it’s almost entirely in Syriac, and is generally excellent, it’s done according to the “revised” Missal of 2003 and so does not represent the traditional Maronite liturgy.

 

[dzheremi]

Thank you for that info, Malphono. I wondered who celebrated that liturgy. It is a shame that it is apparently the only one in Syriac. I have a lot of Maronite recordings (at least I would think so, for someone from outside the Levant), but the two recordings of the liturgy that I have been able to find so far are anything but traditional, so I guess this is as good as it gets.

I wonder: Has the influx of Assyrian Neo-Aramaic speakers since the start of the most recent Iraq war caused any renewed interest in Syriac among the Maronites? I would think that it would, but I don’t know how separate the communities are on the ground. The most comprehensive resource I was able to find in English via Google when researching the prospects of learning Syriac in Lebanon (before my funding proposal was denied ) is from 2000, and indicates that for the Maronites there are basically no options to learn Syriac outside of classes taught by private initiative by priests or monks. A very sad situation, if true.

 

[malphono]

Thank you for that info, Malphono. I wondered who celebrated that liturgy. It is a shame that it is apparently the only one in Syriac. I have a lot of Maronite recordings (at least I would think so, for someone from outside the Levant), but the two recordings of the liturgy that I have been able to find so far are anything but traditional, so I guess this is as good as it gets.

I have a few as well, and of the neo-liturgical ones, this is far and away the best.

I wonder: Has the influx of Assyrian Neo-Aramaic speakers since the start of the most recent Iraq war caused any renewed interest in Syriac among the Maronites? I would think that it would, but I don’t know how separate the communities are on the ground.

On the ground, the newly-arrived immigrants (or refugees) do tend to stay to themselves, but they are also integrated into the greater Christian community. The influx of Assyrian (Eastern dialect) and Syriac (Western dialect) speaking (“neo” or otherwise) peoples from Iraq and elsewhere hasn’t had all that much affect. However, there is (and has been for quite some years) an indigenous movement within the Maronite community to revive and treasure our proper language.

The most comprehensive resource I was able to find in English via Google when researching the prospects of learning Syriac in Lebanon (before my funding proposal was denied ) is from 2000, and indicates that for the Maronites there are basically no options to learn Syriac outside of classes taught by private initiative by priests or monks. A very sad situation, if true.

That’s more or less true. The Antonine Monks (OAM) are probably the most famous for their efforts at teaching Syriac.

 

[dzheremi]

Sorry, I temporarily forgot where I am! I should have clarified that “Assyrian Neo-Aramaic” is the standard academic term for this group of dialects, used in all linguistics journals and publications that I’ve ever seen, so it is what I naturally went for as a blanket term, to stay out of the rather contentious arguments that can sometimes flare up among the various communities. “Neo-” in this case is not at all meant as any kind of derisive label.

 

[malphono]

Sorry, I temporarily forgot where I am! I should have clarified that “Assyrian Neo-Aramaic” is the standard academic term for this group of dialects, used in all linguistics journals and publications that I’ve ever seen, so it is what I naturally went for as a blanket term, to stay out of the rather contentious arguments that can sometimes flare up among the various communities. “Neo-” in this case is not at all meant as any kind of derisive label.

Yes, I know what you meant, and no, I didn’t take it as a pejorative. I put it the way I did because the “neos” are generally based on Assyrian (Eastern Aramaic). The modern variants in Syriac (Western Aramaic) are less distant from the “real thing” so-to-speak than most of the Assyrian “neos” would be.

 

[dzheremi]

Ah, yes. What are you taking to be the “real thing”? I find this fascinating, because in linguistics we are generally not allowed to acknowledge the existence of such a thing…there are only dialects based or centered around different regional standards…so it’s like I’m being naughty. Quite fun!

From what I have read it is the Western Neo-Aramaic dialect spoken in western Syria that is closest to the language as it would have existed in the time of Jesus, if that is what you mean. I don’t know because I don’t speak or understand any dialect, and have only recently taken to studying it pedagogically.

 

[malphono]

Ah, yes. What are you taking to be the “real thing”? I find this fascinating, because in linguistics we are generally not allowed to acknowledge the existence of such a thing…there are only dialects based or centered around different regional standards…so it’s like I’m being naughty. Quite fun!

When I say the “real thing” I really mean the so-called “classical” or “literary” form of the dialect. The “neos” are influenced in varying ways by outside (and often non-Semitic) languages, mostly by Turkish, as I understand things, and also to an extent by Arabic and Persian. The influence, of course, depending on the locale.

From what I have read it is the Western Neo-Aramaic dialect spoken in western Syria that is closest to the language as it would have existed in the time of Jesus, if that is what you mean. I don’t know because I don’t speak or understand any dialect, and have only recently taken to studying it pedagogically.

There are really 3 surviving dialects of Aramaic: Eastern (aka Assyrian or Chaldean), Western (aka Syriac) and what is usually called “Palestinian-Jewish Aramaic” which is what was spoken by Jews in Galilee. It survives in a few small villages in south-western Syria, but for the obvious political reasons, they generally don’t use the “Jewish” moniker.

 

[dzheremi]

Ah, see, there is some politicizing of this issue depending on where you look, so I had to ask. You have on one hand missionary-“linguist” organizations like the Summer Institute of Linguistics (SIL) which publishes annually a book called the “Ethnologue”, a listing of the languages of the world as their organization quantifies them. In the most recent editions I have seen, they persist in subdividing the language by denomination, and hence there is an entry for “Chaldean Neo-Aramaic” (with the note that “The ethnic group is distinct religiously from speakers of other Northeastern Aramaic varieties” ?!?!), etc. They list 19 dialects in total (source), including some extinct varieties, which obviously complicates things a bit when looking for what might be the “real thing”! Even in non-ridiculous publications like Heinrich’s “Studies in Neo-Aramaic” (1990), a very good survey, there is an allowance made for “Neo-Mandaic” as its own dialect, bringing the total number of dialects or dialect groupings to four:

• Western (in western Syria; Maaloula and the two Muslim villages)
• Central (with two sub-groupings, Turyoyo and Mlahso, the second being extinct)
• Eastern (Heinrich includes the Jewish and Christian dialects of northern Iraq, Iran, and Turkey here)
• Mandaic (Iraq before 1990, and Khuzestan in Iran)

Off the top of my head, the only discussion of Jewish dialects is in the Eastern section, concerning the Jews of “Kurdistan”, though there could be something on the Palestinian Jews as well that I’m just not recalling right now. I have seen many other books regarding the Aramaic dialects of the Palestinian Jews, but this is not really a particular area of interest of mine, so I don’t own any.

Regarding “Syriac”, this term is generally confined in the modern (say, post-1950) linguistic literature that I have read to extinct literary forms of the language and not used for any variety that is currently spoken except for clarification purposes as to its ecclesiastical use (e.g., Sengstock 1982, 1999). So it is hard for me to readjust my mental lexicon here, even though I have taken to using it here on CAF out of convenience and the fact that posts like one bore the heck out of everyone (sorry).

I of course defer to you, as a self-identified Syro-Maronite, to use whatever you feel is most correct. Thank you for your insights. It is interesting to get another perspective on these things from someone who is intimately acquainted with the language and culture, and not a book…

 

[deejcrist]

It is generally believed that Jesus’ language would have been Aramaic - closely aligned to Hebrew… It is also believed that the Gospels attributed to (but not provable by) Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were written in Greek. Why is this please?
beta alanine

 

[Cecilianus]

It is generally believed that Jesus’ language would have been Aramaic - closely aligned to Hebrew… It is also believed that the Gospels attributed to (but not provable by) Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were written in Greek. Why is this please?
beta alanine

I would accept the argument of Fr. Claude Tresmontant that Matthew was written in Aramaic.