Archangels and Seraphims: Did they merit?

[Pythagoras]

I don’t know what happened in the creation of the Angels except in the book "City of God"by Ven, Maria Agreda.

My question is when God created the angels, were their positions/degree in Heaven already been fixed before the rebellion, or it was after their choices they made after the rebellion of the evil ones?

It’s like saying some of the angels only became the Seraphims after they made the good decision to side with God against the evil angels. Or, the Seraphims were already the Seraphims even before the rebellion.

 

[mikekle]

Id say they held their ‘rank’ upon their creation, as God already had a plan for them before creating each and every one of them, so he would have known what ‘their place’ was going to be for all time.

The one thing that makes me wonder is that ‘battle’ that took place in heaven, between the archangel Michael and Satan and the other fallen angels…If God (and his angels), were as all powerful as we believe, why would a battle even been necessary? Seems like at the very first sign there was to be some kind of rebellion, it would have been instantly thwarted and ‘the offenders’ been turned to dust right on the spot.

 

[Pythagoras]

Who knows maybe the battle just lasted for 5 seconds since they were not fighting with swords but with ideas/reason through telepathy vs telepathy

 

[frizzgrig]

Id say they held their ‘rank’ upon their creation, as God already had a plan for them before creating each and every one of them, so he would have known what ‘their place’ was going to be for all time.

The one thing that makes me wonder is that ‘battle’ that took place in heaven, between the archangel Michael and Satan and the other fallen angels…If God (and his angels), were as all powerful as we believe, why would a battle even been necessary? Seems like at the very first sign there was to be some kind of rebellion, it would have been instantly thwarted and ‘the offenders’ been turned to dust right on the spot.

Because God so loves His creation (all His creation) that he allows the freedom of choice for the intelligent species. Angels have the opportunity to chose to serve God or not when they are created. Those who chose to serve remain in Heaven and are what we call angels and those who chose not to are cast out and are what we call fallen angels, demons, devils, or evil spirits.

My personal thoughts are the battle would not have happened if the fallen angels had chosen to live peacefully in some corner of creation, but instead they desired to “have their cake and eat it too” - they wanted to possess Heaven without serving God.

 

[Mintaka]

One of the ancient traditions about St. Michael was that he was created just a joe-schmo lowly angel, totally down at the bottom of the heap in powers and abilities. Only when he spoke up against Lucifer’s rebellion (“Who is like God?”) was he given great powers and a position of leadership. The same thing is sometimes said about St. Gabriel and St. Raphael, although they are sometimes said to have come from different, “higher” choirs than Michael did.

Obviously every angel who chose to rebel against God has lost a lot of his power and beauty, so they aren’t like they were when they were created, either. Meanwhile, angels who were faithful gained the Beatific Vision as well as many powers and graces, and became able to live with God.

So before the angels made their choice one way or another, they didn’t actually live in Heaven the way we think of living in Heaven. It was another state similar to Heaven, just like the paradise of Eden was similar to our Earth and to Heaven in many ways, but not the same as either. (Pope St. Gregory the Great talks a little bit about this in his Homilies on Ezekiel. But it’s all very vague because we just don’t know a lot about angels.)

We don’t know why God allowed the angels to battle, other than as part of His respect for their great choice for good or evil. Certainly He was never in any danger. Angels are powerful and smart, but they are almost as infinitely less powerful than God as we are.

Angelology is an interesting branch of study, but I don’t know a lot about it.

 

[John_Lazarus]

Who knows. Michael may have been of a lower order of angels – maybe he was a Throne (j.g.), or a Seraph (lower half) – then sat a board and got promoted.

 

[mikekle]

My personal thoughts are the battle would not have happened if the fallen angels had chosen to live peacefully in some corner of creation, but instead they desired to “have their cake and eat it too” - they wanted to possess Heaven without serving God.

So, in your opinion, what was their ultimate plan had the battle gone their way and Gods angels were defeated…heaven is not heaven without God, there would no way to kick him out, so this does not sound reasonable.

Another thing, what was their plan for the humans if they had won…if God was beaten, there would be no more humans being born for them to rule over, Satan would have known he did not have the power to breath life into anything, so…??..Im sorry, but none of this sounds realistic.

Is it really that wrong to admit the story in the bible of the fall was just a story, explaining something to us in a way we can understand it, yet the results are still the same, we have God and we have ‘the other choice’, that would not change, its just HOW it really happened and WHY, is the real question…God has made it clear there is MUCH knowledge humans are not given, maybe this is part of that?

Satan would have known God could not be defeated, killed or beaten in anyway.