Archbishop Announces High-Level Meeting for Possible Restructuring of Anglican Communion

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Picky_Picky said:
That seems to me to be a statement from someone with little understanding of what motivates ++Justin. To suggest it is money is frankly defamatory.
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I think he is motivated to continue the Anglican Communion’s mission throughout the world. As it is, this is funded largely by TEC. Much effort has been made to placate and appease TEC over the years because of this fact. Most of this is not ++Justin’s fault, as he inherited this mess. But it is apparent that he believes the programs and types of mission work that get accomplished with an intact Anglican Communion are more important than fidelity to the Gospel and the Scriptures. Make of that what you will.
 
theropod said:
The applicants have all but dried up, and many of those who swam the Tiber are swimming back. Many feel they were misled, or Rome changed the agreements afterwards. It’s a lot less necessary now with recent developments in the Anglican world.
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I am a long time observer of the process, back to the days before the formation of the TAC, and when the ACC was the point man, from the Continuum, for the first talks with Rome. But my contact, roughly after the issuance of Anglicanorum coeitbus and related protocols, has faded. Tell me what figures you know, for those who came in, post AC (not Pastoral Provision) and how many have subsequently left the RCC, after coming aboard. And where did those figures come from.
 
GKC said:
I am a long time observer of the process, back to the days before the formation of the TAC, and when the ACC was the point man, from the Continuum, for the first talks with Rome. But my contact, roughly after the issuance of Anglicanorum coeitbus and related protocols, has faded. Tell me what figures you know, for those who came in, post AC (not Pastoral Provision) and how many have subsequently left the RCC, after coming aboard. And where did those figures come from.
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I don’t have any figures, and frankly, I don’t know if there are any figures to be found. My information is purely anecdotal.
 
theropod said:
I don’t have any figures, and frankly, I don’t know if there are any figures to be found. My information is purely anecdotal.
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Marginally useful, then.

Back in the run up to AC, and immediately after, I was posting here that there would not be a tidal wave of Anglicans flocking to the Tiber-side, it wasn’t that sort of thing going on, at all. I occasionally was accused of trying to minimize the process, when I was actually understanding it, historically, and what finally triggered AC, in early 2009. But, from all sources, for the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter’s, figures for those brought in by *AC *are few, And those for any returning , retrograde, fewer. I doubt either category is very large, and the percent of the latter, as to the former, smaller still.
 
GKC said:
Marginally useful, then.

Back in the run up to AC, and immediately after, I was posting here that there would not be a tidal wave of Anglicans flocking to the Tiber-side, it wasn’t that sort of thing going on, at all. I occasionally was accused of trying to minimize the process, when I was actually understanding it, historically, and what finally triggered AC, in early 2009. But, from all sources, for the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter’s, figures for those brought in by *AC *are few, And those for any returning , retrograde, fewer. I doubt either category is very large, and the percent of the latter, as to the former, smaller still.
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Yeah, the numbers really aren’t significant, whatever they are. I think it filled a niche for a while, but there are more options for orthodox Anglicans now.
 
GKC said:
Not for my sort, I fear.
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If (and it’s a big if, I know, but my diocese doesn’t allow it except for the diaconate) the ACNA resolves the issue of women’s ordination, and has an acceptable new prayer book, would you consider it?
 
theropod said:
If (and it’s a big if, I know, but my diocese doesn’t allow it except for the diaconate) the ACNA resolves the issue of women’s ordination, and has an acceptable new prayer book, would you consider it?
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More than I do now.
 
GKC said:
Lutherans may have passed the Anglicans, maybe. If you count all Lutherans as one thing. The Anglican Communion, as one thing, now claims around 80,000,000 adherents. Whether they are in any sense one thing is certainly doubtful, but at least they have the name. As of now. Later, maybe they will have another name, and formally not be one thing. Or maybe being that one thing will not mean what it means now.

And then there are the Anglicans not part of the Communion, currently.

All confusing.
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And some Lutherans and Anglicans are both…

…Lutheran and Anglican.

Jon
 
GKC said:
Lutherans may have passed the Anglicans, maybe. If you count all Lutherans as one thing. The Anglican Communion, as one thing, now claims around 80,000,000 adherents. Whether they are in any sense one thing is certainly doubtful, but at least they have the name. As of now. Later, maybe they will have another name, and formally not be one thing. Or maybe being that one thing will not mean what it means now.

And then there are the Anglicans not part of the Communion, currently.

All confusing.
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There are anywhere from 81.5 million to 90 million Lutherans vs Anglicans with 85 million .
 
7_Sorrows said:
do the anglicans include episcopalians in their numbers?
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Most assuredly.

It is unlikely that includes non Communion Anglicans (as in the Continuum), if the figures come from Communion sources. Doesn’t include ACNA, either, I would suppose.
 
theropod said:
I think he is motivated to continue the Anglican Communion’s mission throughout the world. As it is, this is funded largely by TEC. Much effort has been made to placate and appease TEC over the years because of this fact. Most of this is not ++Justin’s fault, as he inherited this mess. But it is apparent that he believes the programs and types of mission work that get accomplished with an intact Anglican Communion are more important than fidelity to the Gospel and the Scriptures. Make of that what you will.
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You suggest that ++Justin, knowing that he has a choice between God’s will and the convenience of the Communion, decides to put God’s will in second place. You must, surely, realise that is not true.

The truth is that there are many different understandings of God’s will. If that were not the case there would be no Anglican Communion and no Non Catholic Religions forum. The Church of England has a pronounced bias in favour of inclusivity of varying Christian standpoints, partly from its history, partly from its established status, partly, perhaps, from a strain of Englishness that is reluctant to measure other people’s spiritual purity. At any rate, an English bishop is highly likely to share some of that bias, TEC cash or no TEC cash.

Add to that ++Justin’s background, putting his life at risk for reconciliation in African war zones, and you have someone predisposed to bringing people together rather than working for expulsion.
 
GKC said:
Their numbers are likely down, whether the non-Communion Anglicans are counted or not. But Orthodox always had them beat.
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Specifically the Eastern Orthodox communion. The Oriental Orthodox are definitely smaller but not insignificant. It’s hard to get accurate or consistent numbers but I’ve seen estimates in the 50 million range for the Non-Chalcedonians.
 
theropod said:
The applicants have all but dried up, and many of those who swam the Tiber are swimming back. Many feel they were misled, or Rome changed the agreements afterwards. It’s a lot less necessary now with recent developments in the Anglican world.
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Are you speaking of the North American, UK, or Australian Ordinariates? Or do you feel that large numbers are leaving all three? The Ordinariate parish I know in North America is very much thriving from what I can see. A quick look at the North America Ordinariate site shows a steady stream of new clergy ordinations.
How do they feel they were misled by Rome? Married priests are ordained, liturgical traditions preserved, autonomy under their own Ordinaries granted… Was there an expectation in some circles that Catholic dogma would be negotiable?
 
twf said:
How do they feel they were misled by Rome? Married priests are ordained, liturgical traditions preserved, autonomy under their own Ordinaries granted…
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The stories I have heard say that this turned out to not be universal.
 
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