Archbishop Flynn: But WAIT, there's more!

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Not to be outdone by Archbishops Gumbleton and Maida in these forums, and not to be thought of as simply a loyal and consistent supporter of super-inclusiveness and dissension (as amply demonstrated on the very depressing Joan of Arc (Mpls.) thread, Archbishop Flynn has made his definitive announcement on how goes the Eucharist in the St. Paul/ Mpls. diocese.

There is not much originality in his obligatory “what to do about the poiticians” statement, the major queston having been when he would have the courage to make it. He does not believe that it is his “responsiblilty…to pass judgment on Catholics, as they proceed to the Communion table.” (Table? Well, that’s for another day.)

But now, get this, his understanding of the Eucharist: “It is my strong belief that the Eucharist is a source of healing and unity…” and “Eucharist extends our participation as baptized Catholics and invites us to discipleship. We are invited to the table “(there it is again),” to join with the community, to give thanks, to be nourished, to be challenged in our discipleship and then sent forth to be disciples. This discipleship requires that we constantly develop a more profound grasp of our faith…”

Wouldn’t you think the first thing the disciple ought to grasp is the meaning of the Eucharist? Wouldn’t you suppose that the primary teacher of that meaning ought to be his bishop? Mel Gibson, where are you when we need you?

Now we start a Big Evangelism project in the Twin Cities. How?
What are we to say? How are we to convince people to join us if we stand for nothing? (Sorry, there’s always social justice …Very Big in Minnesota…and shhh. it’s easy!)

The same Catholic Spirit (the bishop’s paper) that announced the above gave the results of a recent Pew Research Center poll showing among other things that 55% of Catholics surveyed said it is more important to conduct embryonic stem-cell research than to stop in the interest of not destroying babies.

Please pray for us,

Anna

 

[JCPhoenix]

I just saw the blurb on Channel 9.

And do you know who they interviewed? Some blonde woman in front of St. Joan of Arc!!!

Let’s draft a letter to the station. I watch channel 9 every morning and many evenings…and this biased newscast has given the WRONG impression!

**BETTER YET. let’s write to Cardinal Ratzinger! **

I’m DONE with this heresy our bishop is propagating!

**(sorry about the bold…somehow it got turned on and I don’t know what keystroke I used so I can’t undo it yet) **

 

[Toni]

Cardinal Maida I would question because I have never heard any of this out of him.

But Bishop’s Schaner and Gumbleton have had their share of abuses. But I just learned that the harder you pray for the truth to be shown to these bishops, report the abuse to a higher authority, send them a kind reminder of errors and you have done as St. Paul as said. and then shake the dust from your feet and find someone who is faithful to the Holy Father. I know it all sounds nice but I will add Bishop Flynn to my prayers. Bishop Schaner is in a partial almost full retirement and Bishop Gumbleton I have not heard much from. Although I am sure anyone who went to the Call to Action Conference may say differently.

 

[Faithful_2_Rome]

As a Priest he doesnt think he should judge?

I sure hope this guy aint hearing Confessions…

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

JCPhoenix:

I just saw the blurb on Channel 9.

And do you know who they interviewed? Some blonde woman in front of St. Joan of Arc!!!

Let’s draft a letter to the station. I watch channel 9 every morning and many evenings…and this biased newscast has given the WRONG impression!

**BETTER YET. let’s write to Cardinal Ratzinger! **

I’m DONE with this heresy our bishop is propagating!

**(sorry about the bold…somehow it got turned on and I don’t know what keystroke I used so I can’t undo it yet) **

Missed it, but I’ll be watching. I suppose I’d better catch the other news outlets, too.

Yes, it’s time to start writing to Rome…for me it’s again, as I’ve written before. If you haven’t seen the thread on Joan of Arc, don’t miss it. There is also a link to something called Catholic Parents on Line that describes the correspondance between people concerned about Joan of Arc and other parishes and Archbishop Flynn. I’d heard about some group to whom he had sent back all letters he received and told them not to bother him. Well, here it all is.

You do sound much as I felt when the Catholic Spirit came this p.m. I really freaked, but I know that will accomplish nothing. I’ll put in some adoration time tomorrow and think about this. I hope you will feel better as otherwise these things hurt us in two ways.

Do you know about Archbishop Flynn and Human Life International? Another story of perfidy.

One more thing: I’m sure that many of those so-called Catholics in the study were in name only. I also got the impression that they polled non-Catholics on the politician/Communion question.



Anna

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Cardinal Maida I would question because I have never heard any of this out of him.

But Bishop’s Schaner and Gumbleton have had their share of abuses. But I just learned that the harder you pray for the truth to be shown to these bishops, report the abuse to a higher authority, send them a kind reminder of errors and you have done as St. Paul as said. and then shake the dust from your feet and find someone who is faithful to the Holy Father. I know it all sounds nice but I will add Bishop Flynn to my prayers. Bishop Schaner is in a partial almost full retirement and Bishop Gumbleton I have not heard much from. Although I am sure anyone who went to the Call to Action Conference may say differently.

Toni, I spent more time than I really had reading about the trials of those in many Michigan parishes. I was trying to get my head in order to start the thread on Archbishop Flynn’s latest activity. If you haven’t read those threads, I really recommend them. I got the impression that neither Gumbleton nor Maida had been overseeing the seminaries and placement of newly ordained priests as they should have.

I hope I haven’t done Cardinal Maida a disservice. From all I know of the other one, it would be very hard to do so.

God bless,

Anna

 

[JCPhoenix]

Anna Elizabeth:

Yes, it’s time to start writing to Rome…for me it’s again, as I’ve written before. If you haven’t seen the thread on Joan of Arc, don’t miss it. There is also a link to something called Catholic Parents on Line that describes the correspondance between people concerned about Joan of Arc and other parishes and Archbishop Flynn. I’d heard about some group to whom he had sent back all letters he received and told them not to bother him. Well, here it all is.

Do you know about Archbishop Flynn and Human Life International? Another story of perfidy.

One more thing: I’m sure that many of those so-called Catholics in the study were in name only. I also got the impression that they polled non-Catholics on the politician/Communion question.



Anna

HEARD about the SJA post? Are you kidding? I think I WROTE half of it? (I mean the replies)

I WENT to SJA once with a very liberal non-Catholic…and even SHE thought it had issues! It’s pretty telling when someone of her ilk goes to a “mass” there and has a problem with it. She doesn’t know it and would deny it, but the Holy Spirit spoke through her that day and touched her conscience.

Fr. Wertin was the priest at my church when I was confirmed.

I think you’re right. Not everyone they interviewed were “real” Catholics. Sure, anyone can say they’re Catholic…but do they believe the Eucharist is Jesus Christ? Have they “seen” Jesus on the altar as they approached for Communion? Have they been able to come close to grasping this miracle?

Bishop Flynn’s point can be argued to the point that he doesn’t have the right to judge another’s heart…HOWEVER! When a politician is PUBLICLY stating that he supports issues in direct contradiciton to Catholic belief…then that person can no longer call him/herself Catholic.

When one is publicly in disdain of Christ’s teachings, then as far as I’m concerned, he can be publicly denied Communion unless he publicly refutes his own words and then publicly follows the correct path.

In the words of Father Corapi “YOU CAN’T BE CATHOLIC AND PRO CHOICE!”

AMEN!

I love Fr. Corapi.
I hope I’m not being presumptious, but I think he may be the next Doctor of the Church.

What is the situation about Archbishop Flynn and Human Life International? I HAVEN’T heard of it?

OH! and before I forget…let’s send the news crews to poll the good people of St. Agnes…any other suggestions of orthodox churches? I go to Epiphany, but I know there are at least some liberals there. I believe the majority, from what I’ve seen, though, may be more orthodox.

How does one get ahold of Cardinal Ratzinger? Does he have an e-mail address or should letters go via mail?

I would LOVE to give a report on the state of our dioces…and I also know I could obtain other signatures to join my own in my local area.

 

[Jadesfire20]

JCPhoenix:

I just saw the blurb on Channel 9.

And do you know who they interviewed? Some blonde woman in front of St. Joan of Arc!!!

Let’s draft a letter to the station. I watch channel 9 every morning and many evenings…and this biased newscast has given the WRONG impression!

**BETTER YET. let’s write to Cardinal Ratzinger! **

I’m DONE with this heresy our bishop is propagating!

**(sorry about the bold…somehow it got turned on and I don’t know what keystroke I used so I can’t undo it yet) **

The thread on St Joan of Arc was really infuriating!

I think all the devout Catholic ladies in the area should walk into SJA wearing the biggest, loudest mantillas they can find and keep Jesus company. I wonder what would happen?

Our Lord shouldn’t have to suffer these indignities alone; he already did it once for us.

 

[JCPhoenix]

Hmmm…mantillas at SJa…but you know? They might mistake us for Muslim women and be happy we’re “converting” to their church.

I think we should try having a Mass OUTSIDE of SJA when they have their mass, and do some sidewalk counseling. Maybe we could have other priests available for confession, and all of us could bring extra mantillas to hand out to the women to wear.

ANy other ideas?

And then Bishop Flynn…how does one redirect someone with his status?? I don’t think a simple Mass would do it…no doubt he’d join in, so the point would be lost entirely.

I’m thinking the letter idea may be the best route to take with him…to the Cardinal, I mean.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

JCPhoenix:

HEARD about the SJA post? Are you kidding? I think I WROTE half of it? (I mean the replies)

Yes, you did! I just was so concerned with the messages and how I could start my on re Archbishop Flynn that I didn’t pay attenion.

I think you’re right. Not everyone they interviewed were “real” Catholics. Sure, anyone can say they’re Catholic

Also interesting: third paragraph: "The poll, released Aug. 24, found that 64 percent of the general public thought it improper for church leaders to deny Communion. the general public?/]

Bishop Flynn’s point can be argued to the point that he doesn’t have the right to judge another’s heart…

No one is asking him to judge somebody’s heart. He quotes a conscience platitude from Gaudium et Spes in a way we would call “proof texting” if it were Scripture. The quote has little or no applicability to the situation at hand, and besides, he takes the quote out of context. Only a few sentences later GS speaks of “a man who cares but little for truth and goodness” and the “conscience which by degrees grows practically sightless as a result of habitual sin.” This is not fair, is it? :tsktsk:

Rats. I have a call coming in that I must take, and I don’t want to lose this post, so I must ssend it! More later.

Anna

 

[Catholic29]

I agree, we all should write to the Vatican about these bishops who are lacking a sense of truth. We have these parishes who are proudly thumbing noses at the teachings of the particular faith they are supposed to represent. But whats worse is we have these “Shepherds”(bishops) who are entrusted to our care, knowlingly allow homosexality, lesbianism and other abominations contrary to scripture and the catechism persist in the Church. It is scandalous beyond words. Here is the link to the Joan of Arc thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=5071 and another which I began earlier forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=8973

 

[Toni]

Anna Elizabeth:

Toni, I spent more time than I really had reading about the trials of those in many Michigan parishes. I was trying to get my head in order to start the thread on Archbishop Flynn’s latest activity. If you haven’t read those threads, I really recommend them. I got the impression that neither Gumbleton nor Maida had been overseeing the seminaries and placement of newly ordained priests as they should have.

I hope I haven’t done Cardinal Maida a disservice. From all I know of the other one, it would be very hard to do so.

God bless,

Anna

Anna to be honest I am sure you have valid opinions on many of these priests and Bishops. But I did some work for Cardinal Maida, I go to the Cathedral once in a while. I have seen a whole lot of good out of him, he has even managed to keep Gumbleton and Schaner quieted down a few knotches. The seminaries are being slowly cleaned, you have to remember what a mess he started with. Cardinal Deardon allowed to many things to go on and everything fell. Cardinal Szchocka tried to clean but then decided that he had better focus his attention on the parishes that were not surviving so he sold them against the wishes of many Catholic’s. (Nothing against him he did what he had to do) Cardinal Maida has many new Bishops who are very good. Including the late Bishop Britt. But Cardinal Maida did walk into a bees nest and is surviving quite nicely. Perfect by no means but who of us are? But he has worked hard and has Bishop Quinn working in the seminary now and many others. I think the bigger problem are all those priests who do not obey Rome or their own local Bishop’s. We can only pray. But I did want to set the record straight on Cardinal Maida. He has done many good things for the Diocese of Detroit. Many of those priests were in the seminary long before Cardinal Maida was in charge. Look into Deardon most of them go back that far.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

Cardinal Maida I would question because I have never heard any of this out of him.

But Bishop’s Schaner and Gumbleton have had their share of abuses. But I just learned that the harder you pray for the truth to be shown to these bishops, report the abuse to a higher authority, send them a kind reminder of errors and you have done as St. Paul as said. and then shake the dust from your feet and find someone who is faithful to the Holy Father. I know it all sounds nice but I will add Bishop Flynn to my prayers. Bishop Schaner is in a partial almost full retirement and Bishop Gumbleton I have not heard much from. Although I am sure anyone who went to the Call to Action Conference may say differently.

Toni, Cardinal Maida flip-flops more than Kerry. He flows with the tide, even if the current ends in a cesspool. I haven’t heard much about abuses by Schoenherr; I’ve met him a couple of times & he seemed like a good man, faithful to the magesterium. But appearances can be deceiving. Gumbleton you never hear from because he’s been spending time in the Middle East apologizing for the war.

There hasn’t been a Call to Action conference here in several years, because the Call to Holiness blindsided them. To see Maida on CTND, you’d think he’s a good, solid bishop. Let me just say that he has a good TV persona. We need to pray for all bishops. Bps. Burke and Bruskewicz are good cases to agree with human cloning.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Detroit Sue:

Toni, Cardinal Maida flip-flops more than Kerry. He flows with the tide, even if the current ends in a cesspool.

Toni, Pleaase go to the Sacrament thread: “Orthodox priests are (something like ‘being persecuted)’ in Detroit” for more info from both Detroit Sue and others from that area.

I must say, that when things get depressing here (St., Paul/Mpls.), I’m going to remember Michigan. Consolation, if small.



Anna

 

[OriginalJS]

Many seem to be having trouble with Archbishop Flynn’s pronouncement that came out Thursday in the Catholic Spirit. Some either accuse him of heresy or come very close to doing so. And some rely on an exchange that Bishop Flynn had with Catholic Parents Online (www.catholicparents.org) in support of their reproaches against him. The basis of all this ado is his conclusion that reception of the Eucharist should not be a political football.

1. I wonder that many Catholics would feel comfortable with catholic parents online. From my recent visits to the site they have about 10 contributors to their discussion groups. Sometime toward the end of last year Ms. Colleen Perfect, who runs the operation, shut the discussion forum down because she got outraged over what she viewed as uncomplimentary postings. The general thrust of the site is a mean-spirited, narrow-minded religiousity that seeks to call down ecclesiastical sanction on anyone who, in Ms. Perfect’s opinion, is not following Catholic teaching - as she interprets it.
2. Catholics have always preached that the laity is to be led by the magisterium as the teaching authority of the Church and that the Church heirarchy is not a democracy. This sounds pretty good in theory, but around here the true rule seems to be that some of the laity will agree with the Bishop when they agree, otherwise they start pointing fingers and yelling scandal and heresy.
3. I actually read Bishop Flynn’s message, “Eucharist: A sourch of healing and unity, not political judgments.” He says, “I do not believe that it is my responsibility . . . to pass judgment on Catholics as the proceed to the Communion table.” Maybe someone can point out exactly what is heretical about Archbishop Flynn’s article - and not simply whine that they don’t agree with it.

Finally, it is the duty of Catholics under Archbishop Flynn’s jurisdiction to accept and obey what he says. There is no higher spiritual authority than one’s own bishop. So, I respectfully suggest that the laity stop complaining an obey the leader. Of course, the alternative is to move someplace else where the local ordinary has different opinions.

 

[Catholic29]

OriginalJS, if you wish to attend parishes like St. Joan of Arc in Minneapolis and others with a pro-homosexual agenda, I have no problem with it. Its just that activities like that blatantly conflict with my understanding of Catholic teaching, along with that of ms. Perfects. In which case don’t expect to see me or her there anytime soon.

I have yet to find one Bible passage or any paragraph in the Catholic Catechism allowing, much less legitimizing gay/lesbian activity(I have actually found many forbidding and condemning). So until Archbishop Flynn can clarify to us with a scriptural reference or a document from a Council or Pope permitting these activities in Parishes and other Catholic institutions, we won’t even remain silent.

If you want proof of St. Joan’s supposed homosexual agenda, look no further stjoan.com/glfr.htm . Feel free to look through their site, if its your cup of tea and you live in the neighborhood by all means go.

I apologize for sounding blunt or uncharitable with my comments, its just that I feel very strongly about what is going on, and I have been praying much about this. Believe me, I am much more sad than angry.

 

[JCPhoenix]

OriginalJS:

Many seem to be having trouble with Archbishop Flynn’s pronouncement that came out Thursday in the Catholic Spirit. Some either accuse him of heresy or come very close to doing so. And some rely on an exchange that Bishop Flynn had with Catholic Parents Online (www.catholicparents.org) in support of their reproaches against him. The basis of all this ado is his conclusion that reception of the Eucharist should not be a political football.

1. Catholics have always preached that the laity is to be led by the magisterium as the teaching authority of the Church and that the Church heirarchy is not a democracy. This sounds pretty good in theory, but around here the true rule seems to be that some of the laity will agree with the Bishop when they agree, otherwise they start pointing fingers and yelling scandal and heresy.
2. I actually read Bishop Flynn’s message, “Eucharist: A sourch of healing and unity, not political judgments.” He says, “I do not believe that it is my responsibility . . . to pass judgment on Catholics as the proceed to the Communion table.” Maybe someone can point out exactly what is heretical about Archbishop Flynn’s article - and not simply whine that they don’t agree with it.

Finally, it is the duty of Catholics under Archbishop Flynn’s jurisdiction to accept and obey what he says. There is no higher spiritual authority than one’s own bishop. So, I respectfully suggest that the laity stop complaining an obey the leader. Of course, the alternative is to move someplace else where the local ordinary has different opinions.

First of all, the Bishop absolutely has a right and an expectation to provide his leadership in the face of Catholic teaching being publicly disregarded in the interest of a political adjenda. You cannot call yourself Catholic and then support adjendas against Catholic teaching. Simple as that. The Bishop is called to comment on the behavior, and he SHOULD as a result of said behavior, be prepared to defend Jesus Christ. Which he is in fact not doing.

Secondly, the laity actually DO have a right to go over the heads of the local magesterium, and it is our responsiblity to do so when necessary.

Where are we to go? To the higher magesterium, thereby retaining the “chain of command” in line with Catholic doctrine.

Just because we are referred to as the “Sheep” and as our Bishop as the “Shepherd,” we are not callled to behave as mindless animals blindling following poor examples. Even sheep run from a fire in spite of a shepherd trying to herd them into it.

 

[Toni]

Detroit Sue:

Toni, Cardinal Maida flip-flops more than Kerry. He flows with the tide, even if the current ends in a cesspool. I haven’t heard much about abuses by Schoenherr; I’ve met him a couple of times & he seemed like a good man, faithful to the magesterium. But appearances can be deceiving. Gumbleton you never hear from because he’s been spending time in the Middle East apologizing for the war.

There hasn’t been a Call to Action conference here in several years, because the Call to Holiness blindsided them. To see Maida on CTND, you’d think he’s a good, solid bishop. Let me just say that he has a good TV persona. We need to pray for all bishops. Bps. Burke and Bruskewicz are good cases to agree with human cloning.

If you say that Cardinal Maida flip flops and think Schoenner is ok something is very wrong with this picture. Schoenner has been noted as pulling the same stuff as Gumbleton. I worked with Cardinal Maida on proposal B and I am sure that he wanted it passed, but I have saw a whole lot of good things Cardinal Maida has done. He has worked hard on cleaning up the seminaries, he has tried to weed out the bad bishops and put better bishops in his office and he has not been as bad as some we have had in the past. Does that make him the best no but by no means a poor Leader for the church. Many churches in this area are some that had a whole lot of damage in them since Deardon. Also you write from Detroit, did you see the Mass being offered on Sundays in Latin in Detroit, Cardinal Maida did work hard to get all the things together for this Mass. My sister’s order (Opus Sanctus Angelorum) is in Detroit thanks to Cardinal Maida, Father Perrone was given the parish of Assumption Grotto thanks to Cardinal Maida. He has come out to our school that is not Diocesan and has allowed and helped our priests. Just to mention the many good things I have seen out of Cardinal Maida!

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Let me offer a few thoughts on the content of the posts in this thread.

1. 
   *]Any Catholic has a *right *to the sacraments according to Canon Law. No bishop, priest or deacon can restrict that without due process. Again, according to Canon Law, anyone who presents for a sacrament and is properly disposed is to be given the sacrament. Since this issue normally comes up only in cases of the Anointing of the Sick and Communion, I’ll restrict my comments to that. Unless there has been a canonical judgement that is made public, a minister may not refuse communion to one who comes *unless *that person is a notorious sinner *and *the bishop has ordered the sacraments not to be given.
   *]It is not the function of any of us to judge the soul of another. We may judge actions, but that leaves us only in the realm of objective morality. That is, we can say that such and such an action is morally wrong. However, we cannot know if a person performing a morally wrong action has sinned. Remember, that requires knowledge and freedom for both venial and mortal sin. For mortal sin it must also be “grave matter.” Only a priest in confession can make a determination of sin has occurred if, indeed, the penitent is doubtful.
   *]A comment was raised about the use of the term “table.” It’s too bad that the Church has not done a better job of catechizing. The top of the altar is called, in Latin, a *mensa. *This term translates to, you guessed it, “table.” The Archbishop is correct in his terminology.
   *]There seems to be a collection of people who think they know more than bishops or the Church with regard to what is right and what is wrong. This is not the correct attitude for a Catholic. Rather, when a question arises, it should be addressed as a question in a respectful manner. What I have seen posted here is hardly respectful and is, in fact, judgemental and arrogant.
   
   I’m now putting on my asbestos underwear.
   
   Deacon Ed

 

[JCPhoenix]

Thank You, deacon Ed, for that information. I will refrain from any further comments regarding communion in this case.

HOWEVER, we have a collection of churches in our dioces which NEEDS correction, and if you would prefer to check this out to verify our judgments on what is happening there, then I welcome you to do so. Sometimes we need an outside observer to come in to our dioces and react as we do to solidify our positions.

Just be prepared to understand that those churches which call themselves Catholic and which are most often featured in the local media can no longer be considered to be Catholic due to thier abuses and reckless disregard of all things Catholic.

Yes, we will make judgements regarding these things, and in doing so we are not judging souls, but trying to save them.

These abuses have gone on for years and the Bishop has been aware of these issues also for years.

Our Bishop is now working on evangelization…and I wonder how we can possibly try to reach those outside the church when those who are supposed to be inside are so far gone.

Our diocese needs to remove the plank in our eye before trying to see to others outside of it. Charity begins at home, and home is SJA among other churches.

This duty is being shirked, and yes, we will continue to judge that behavior.

Please come to our diocese…we can provide a list of churches for you to attend. Then you can sign our letter to Cardinal Ratzinger, too.