Archbishop Gomez: Detentions and Deportations are a ‘Humanitarian Tragedy”

[Tigg]

Let me ask you directly: what did Jesus say? If He were posting on this forum, what do you believe He would be writing here? Can you find anything in the Gospels about Jesus and something we would consider being an alien?

Jesus would look at the hearts of all involved…INCLUDING those crossing our borders illegally…He would probe the depths of their motivation and identify the areas of sin or absolve them accordingly. But I know one thing…we will each be held accountable for our own actions. Whenever did personal responsibility cease to be a factor in this issue? Would I take the risk of entering a country illegally? Could I steal another’s identity and job and apply for social programs I would know in my heart I am not entitled to? Could I put my family at risk with the possibility of detention and deportation? Parents are morally bound to a higher standard in their protective role of their children and immigrants are not automatically absolved from sin. And we can oppose illegal immigration while meeting the immediate, sustaining needs of those who have possibly made poor choices for themselves and their families.

 

[Elizabeth502]

How will Jesus Judge?

He will judge according to our behavior, relative to our sphere of influence. Thus:

He will judge what we have done in our sphere of influence to promote social justice and reduce social injustice. That would include, for all, things like public platforms and voting decisions. Case by case, it will include what our individual occupations and roles allow us to do, require us to do (relative to binding ethics in our professions), and morally urge us to do.

What He will not do is to use narrow, non-omniscient standards of users on a discussion forum (or other strangers) to determine who does and who does not merit eternal life with Him.

And since I teach illegal immigrants, I may have a lot less to worry about at the Particular Judgment (in this sphere only) than some CAF users who possibly never do serve them nor have served them, let alone justly.

But since my heart breaks for the poor who are not receiving an adequate education in areas where they are a minority (poor and black or southeast Asian, legally here) within a majority (illegally here), I have an affirmative moral responsibility to correct this situation by at least bringing it to public awareness, since I am aware of it, and He knows I am aware of it. That is also called social justice – the kind that He will judge me for. My teaching privately the few among those poor legal residents whom I have time to teach is not enough.

And I will keep this subject in public view, regardless of how uncomfortable it makes people feel, including people on discussion forums, regardless of how politically incorrect it may be at any given time. Because the question at the Particular Judgment will not be, Did you do what was politically correct?

For all my many serious sins, and their many categories, one thing I will most likely not have to answer for is whether I worked for social justice to the best of my ability.

Oh, and a little footnote: He will also judge us individually as to whether we judged others rashly, with insufficient information, with presumption, and with an attitude of self-righteousness. It might be good to get busy in those areas, as well.

 

[TedDC]

How will Jesus Judge?

He will judge according to our behavior, relative to our sphere of influence. Thus:

He will judge what we have done in our sphere of influence to promote social justice and reduce social injustice. That would include, for all, things like public platforms and voting decisions. Case by case, it will include what our individual occupations and roles allow us to do, require us to do (relative to binding ethics in our professions), and morally urge us to do.

What He will not do is to use narrow, non-omniscient standards of users on a discussion forum (or other strangers) to determine who does and who does not merit eternal life with Him.

And since I teach illegal immigrants, I may have a lot less to worry about at the Particular Judgment (in this sphere only) than some CAF users who possibly never do serve them nor have served them, let alone justly.

But since my heart breaks for the poor who are not receiving an adequate education in areas where they are a minority (poor and black or southeast Asian, legally here) within a majority (illegally here), I have an affirmative moral responsibility to correct this situation by at least bringing it to public awareness, since I am aware of it, and He knows I am aware of it. That is also called social justice – the kind that He will judge me for. My teaching privately the few among those poor legal residents whom I have time to teach is not enough.

And I will keep this subject in public view, regardless of how uncomfortable it makes people feel, including people on discussion forums, regardless of how politically incorrect it may be at any given time. Because the question at the Particular Judgment will not be, Did you do what was politically correct?

For all my many serious sins, and their many categories, one thing I will most likely not have to answer for is whether I worked for social justice to the best of my ability.

Oh, and a little footnote: He will also judge us individually as to whether we judged others rashly, with insufficient information, with presumption, and with an attitude of self-righteousness. It might be good to get busy in those areas, as well.

I see a lot of self-righteousness in your post.

 

[praxising]

So, to praxising, who asked “What would Jesus say?”, I suspect he would probably remind us that:

*It is not the role of the Pastors of the Church to intervene directly in the political structuring *and organization of social life. This task is part of the vocation of the lay faithful (CCC 2242)

Ender

Really? Yet, He didn’t say anything like that. He said to love one another, to treat others as we wish to be treated, So you, as a Christian, wish to wield the whip in this case?

 

[praxising]

Why is this a problem, any measures needed to enforce our laws are ok, lashings, executions, etc. .

I suppose they would think twice about crossing into this country if we just lined the border with crosses on which we display the crucified bodies of previous offenders.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I see a lot of self-righteousness in your post.

Where, precisely? Because I shared that I will have areas of sin to answer for that are serious and many? Because, unlike other posters here (including you), I have no idea who will be or won’t be at the Banquet Table, and would never dare to presume that, including for myself?

Hmmm.

I said that social justice was, of all areas, not one I was most concerned about in my own case. I didn’t make a judgment about what others were doing or not, only that they might examine their own lives instead of others. You might want to do that, too, since we all have to do that.

What I also said was that everyone should do what is in their sphere of influence to do, and if they feel comfortable with that, secure in that, they should continue to do that.

It would appear that you have not the read the thread at all. Not all the parts where people who have no clue what other posters are or are not doing, social justice-wise, in their sphere of influence, are declaring which strangers will not be at The Banquet Table. Those posters were implying that they will be indeed at the Banquet Table, whereas others (here) will not.

Hmm. You’re free to join them, sir. (Sounds as if you already have, of course. )
Have a nice day.

 

[Tigg]

Really? Yet, He didn’t say anything like that. He said to love one another, to treat others as we wish to be treated, So you, as a Christian, wish to wield the whip in this case?

Interesting how we always channel the complexity of this issue into one small quote, while judging another, and ignoring the overall *injustice *to the whole of society.

 

[praxising]

I don’t recall Jesus ever setting a policy on how we should treat illegal aliens…

Really? Well, maybe you recall Him setting a policy on how you should treat all other persons?

As for the rest:

Matthew 25:32-46

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,  and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.      He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.  Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.  For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,  naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[Elizabeth502]

Careful, Tigg. You’ll be accused of “self-righteousness” or violating social justice, by strangers who believe they have a clue about what you’ve done, what you haven’t done, and what’s in your heart.

 

[praxising]

Jesus would look at the hearts of all involved…INCLUDING those crossing our borders illegally…He would probe the depths of their motivation and identify the areas of sin or absolve them accordingly…

That wasn’t what I asked. I asked what He would say if He posted here. Do you remember a passage in Scripture where one brother comes to Jesus, and says his brother had stolen his inheritance? What did Jesus say to him?

 

[Elizabeth502]

He would say that there’s a huge amount of rash judgment going on, and that each should be concerned about his own Particular Judgment. That’s what He would say.

 

[praxising]

Interesting how we always channel the complexity of this issue into one small quote, while judging another, and ignoring the overall *injustice *to the whole of society.

I’m sorry, are you under the impression someone was judging you? I don’t know why. I was just quoting something I remember God saying… As for the topic, there are no complex social issues for a person, there is just what you choose to do. Or what I choose to do.

 

[tafan]

Is this new approach to be generically applied: felons with children shouldn’t go to jail because it breaks up families? I understand this is a hardship but it isn’t exactly clear why a problem someone else has created becomes an obligation for me to resolve. Are we to punish criminals or let them go if their punishment affects others? I wonder, do we apply this standard today for Americans who’s imprisonment would create a hardship for their families or do we let them all off with warnings?

Ender

Well, I was not under the impression we were talking about felons. Would you like to be split from your family for committing a misdemeaner?

 

[Tigg]

Careful, Tigg. You’ll be accused of “self-righteousness” or violating social justice, by strangers who believe they have a clue about what you’ve done, what you haven’t done, and what’s in your heart.

YUP…been there before, E.

 

[Tigg]

That wasn’t what I asked. I asked what He would say if He posted here. Do you remember a passage in Scripture where one brother comes to Jesus, and says his brother had stolen his inheritance? What did Jesus say to him?

Oh, I’m certain Jesus would set us all straight and point out the appropriate parables as they apply. He would also expose the political evil which sometimes is camaflouged as social justice.

 

[praxising]

He would say that there’s a huge amount of rash judgment going on, and that each should be concerned about his own Particular Judgment. That’s what He would say.

What judgment, by whom? You know, this is a Catholic Forum, it says so right at the top of the page. I noticed at the beginning it was made clear by some that this issue is somehow not connected to morals, or subject to commentary by a Bishop.

I don’t believe any such issue does, or can by the nature of Creation, exist. So I was hoping to start some dialogue and thinking about just how being a Christian, as in discerning God’s will for us as revealed through Jesus Christ, can shed Light on what is being said.

Here’s my new dilemma: since when does bringing Jesus into a conversation being had by Catholics somehow get interpreted in a negative way, as “judgment?” I wonder at the irony of someone complaining about being judged, asserting I am the stranger who “thinks I know…” when all I did was ask some questions.

So, here’s another question about this topic: does anyone here believe they can reserve some things in their lives, actions, thoughts, that will not be subject to God’s judgment when they pass? Like there is some “personal space” not belonging to God? I’m also trying to figure out how, as Catholics, we think we get to decide what Bishops should and should not do and say. If we have the answers and have superior moral judgment to them, then what do we need them for?

I know one thing for sure, what I think of anyone is entirely immaterial.

 

[pnewton]

Well, I was not under the impression we were talking about felons. Would you like to be split from your family for committing a misdemeaner?

I would not like that, although realize that there is always the option of moving one’s family to Mexico. Still, if I knew that I could be deported, I would not drink and drive or assault other people. I would not shoplift or vandalize. I really have no problem deporting misdemeanor criminals. They are still criminals. If I was in that situation, I can not imagine crossing the line. I guess if I did, I would believe I got what I deserved.

 

[pnewton]

I don’t recall Jesus ever setting a policy on how we should treat illegal aliens.

He did, actually. The Bible speaks about how we are to treat the stranger among us, with out regard to whether they were there legally or not. The question is not how should we treat them, which must be with charity, but what law enforcement efforts, if any, should we have.

 

[pnewton]

And since I teach illegal immigrants, I may have a lot less to worry about at the Particular Judgment (in this sphere only) than some CAF users who possibly never do serve them nor have served them, let alone justly.

I work both sides. I serve them and serve with them, and I help deport them. I guess my judgment will be complex.

 

[tafan]

I would not like that, although realize that there is always the option of moving one’s family to Mexico. Still, if I knew that I could be deported, I would not drink and drive or assault other people. I would not shoplift or vandalize. I really have no problem deporting misdemeanor criminals. They are still criminals. If I was in that situation, I can not imagine crossing the line. I guess if I did, I would believe I got what I deserved.

Well, the lady I know does not have that option. Her and her husband were both legal. On a technicality with her green card, it is revoked temporarily (immigration lost a renewal form), he gets deported. She is now legal, and a US citizen, still fighting for him to come back here.

Strange logic indeed, that it is ok to do anything to a family for committing a misdemeanor. Very strange. Heck, we should start lashings for speeding tickets.