Archbishop Lefebrve on Luther's Mass

[stmaria]

Vatican 2 is a great teaching Council.

It taught us that Ecumenism is an obligation of the Roman Catholic Church, to fill the wishes of Jesus Christ - That all may be one.

 

[Dioscorus]

You realize that the Church had been facing East well before the advent of Islam. You realize that this is an authentic tradition of the Church. You realize that you are identifying a noble and holy tradition with infidels? Do you realize that the Orthodox also face east?

You do understand why we face East ?

Did Jesus face east at the Last Supper, with his back to his Apostles? No. It is not an issue worthy of schism.

 

[SFD]

I thought Mystici Corporis made it clear that you’d be outside the Mystical Body of Christ. But, you know better than me. Does he travel to Europe like me?

Your Abbott

PS I don’t anyone here, but I don’t want to hang with someone who bullies newcomers.

Yes, heretics, schismatics, and apostates are outside the Church by their own act.

The excommunicated may be outside by an ecclesiastical censure if this is stated in the censure. One cannot say that all excommunicants are “Outside the Church”.

Check Mystici Corporis…it’s based the Bellarmine and membership in the Church as a visible fact.

The entire question is based on membership in the Church…not entirely on ecclesiastical censure. It’s all contained in the Catholic Encyclopedia…if only some would read it in it’s context.

SFD

 

[Dioscorus]

Yes, heretics, schismatics, and apostates are outside the Church by their own act.

The excommunicated may be outside by an ecclesiastical censure if this is stated in the censure. One cannot say that all excommunicants are “Outside the Church”.

Check Mystici Corporis…it’s based the Bellarmine and membership in the Church as a visible fact.

The entire question is based on membership in the Church…not entirely on ecclesiastical censure. It’s all contained in the Catholic Encyclopedia…if only some would read it in it’s context.

SFD

Your post doesn’t compute. Go back to your duties.

 

[stmaria]

=Lazerlike42;3425932]It is arguable that the Council did not define any dogma, that is, infallible teachings

.

It is not arguable. What new infallible teachings did it define?

In any case, regardless of whether it was intended to be dogmatic or not, when the Council teaches on some matter of faith or morals, we as Catholics are bound to accept it, even if it is not taught on an infallible level.

What new teachings on faith and morals did it teach.?

We are not free to dissent from it, but owe at least religious submission of mind and will, according to both the code of canon law and pre-Vatican II Church teaching. According to Pius VI, Pius IX, Vatican I, and Gregory XVI (among many others), the Council is binding on us and infallible insofar as that it cannot present any pastoral discipline which is harmful to the faithful.

What pastoral discipline did Vatican II present?

 

[stmaria]

Did Jesus face east at the Last Supper, with his back to his Apostles? No. It is not an issue worthy of schism.

Yes, according to Jewish custom, Jesus would have faced east as would the apostles.

 

[bear06]

.

It is not arguable. What new

 

[Freshman88]

Did Jesus face east at the Last Supper, with his back to his Apostles? No. It is not an issue worthy of schism.

Why are you so full of hate for these simple practices, these simple traditions? This is just insane - the SSPX is not where it is because of Ad Orientem.

Many OF masses celebrate facing East.
Almost all Eastern Liturgies face East.
And every single EF done by preists in healthy communion with Rome faces East.

Your posts are violent, aggressive and uncalled for.

P.S - what liturgy do the Copts use? what language is it in and which way to they face?

 

[bear06]

Why are you so full of hate for these simple practices, these simple traditions? This is just insane - the SSPX is not where it is because of Ad Orientem.

Many OF masses celebrate facing East.
Almost all Eastern Liturgies face East.
And every single EF done by preists in healthy communion with Rome faces East.

Your posts are violent, aggressive and uncalled for.

Agreement on all counts. Especially the last one. And just so you know, I’m in no way an SSPX supporter as many of the SSPX supporters will gladly verify.

 

[Alexios]

The Last Supper was a highly ritualized Seder/traditional Jewish home service. It wasn’t like one of our meals. It was a worship service where every action had ritual significance, and prayers were even CHANTED IN A RELIGIOUS, NON-EVERYDAY LANGUAGE (Hebrew). Imagine that!

 

[Dioscorus]

Why are you so full of hate for these simple practices, these simple traditions? This is just insane - the SSPX is not where it is because of Ad Orientem.

Many OF masses celebrate facing East.
Almost all Eastern Liturgies face East.
And every single EF done by preists in healthy communion with Rome faces East.

Your posts are violent, aggressive and uncalled for.

P.S - what liturgy do the Copts use? what language is it in and which way to they face?

You’re right. SSPX is where it is because of a schismatic act.

 

[Lazerlike42]

.

It is not arguable. What new infallible teachings did it define?

I said it is arguable because one might be able to make a cases that any new doctrine that it taught was infallibly defined. The Council constituted the voice of all of the bishops of the world speaking in unison, and so that would seem to be an exercise of the universal ordinary magisterium. Now some might argue that as it contains no canons, such teachings are not infallible. However, this would be contradicted by Pius XII, who taught (Divino Afflante Spiritu, Section 1) that Vatican I had issued a “solemn definition” regarding the Scriptures, even though the particular section in mind was not in the form of a canon (Dei Filius, chapter 2, section 7). That is why I chose the language of saying it is arguable, rather than it is certain. In other words, I can see a decent debate being had between two educated persons on opposite sides of this opinion.

What new teachings on faith and morals did it teach.?

Up until the second Vatican Council, there had been some question as to whether or not the ordination to the episcopate conferred merely the character of the episcopacy, or whether or not it conferred also the priestly character - the power to offer the Sacrifice. Some theologians believed that it only conferred the episcopacy. So, for example, according to this if a deacon were to be ordained bishop, he would have to first be ordained a priest, as the ordination to the episcopacy would not confer on him the priestly character. Others held that the episcopal ordination conferred both. This is obviously a rather big deal, as it involves the question of whether or not certain ordinations are validly conferred or not. Thomas Aquinas, for example, was of the latter opinion (see Summa Theologica, Supplement, 35, 5).

Vatican II answered this question in Lumen Gentium, section 21:

In order to fulfill such exalted functions, the apostles were endowed by Christ with a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit coming upon them (cf. Acts 1:8; 2:4; Jn. 20:22-23), and, by the imposition of hands, (cf. 1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6-7) they passed on to their auxiliaries the gift of the Spirit, which is transmitted down to our day through episcopal consecration. The holy synod teaches, moreover, that the fullness of the sacrament of Orders is conferred by episcopal consecration, that fullness, namely, which both in the liturgical tradition of the Church and in the language of the Fathers of the Church is called the high priesthood, the acme of the sacred ministry. Now, episcopal consecration confers, together with the office of sanctifying, the duty also of teaching and ruling, which, however, of their very nature can be exercised only in hierarchical communion with the head and members of the college.

Another issue at hand was whether or not the subdiaconate and other minor orders were of Divine institution or not - that is, whether or not they conveyed Sacramental Grace. Aquinas believed that the answer was yes.

Vatican II came down on the side of no on this question, the first time an organ of the Magisterium had done so.

Dei Verbum, the other Dogmatic Constitution of the second Vatican Council also taught some matters definitively which had been previously debateable. For example, during the debates during the Council of Trent, the council fathers had disagreed on the precise nature of Revelation. There was some question over whether or not Tradition and Scripture constituted two seperate Revelations, or two aspects of one Revelation.

Dei Verbum answered this question. First, it asserted its intention to teach new doctrine in the manner of the previous Councils:

Therefore, following in the footsteps of the Council of Trent and of the First Vatican Council, this present Council wishes to set forth authentic doctrine on divine revelation and how it is handed on…

• Preface

Then, the constitution settled the centuries old debate:

…both [Scripture and Tradition], flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end

…

Sacred tradition and sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the Word of God, committed to the Church.

chapter 2, paragraphs 9-10

What pastoral discipline did Vatican II present?

All sorts. The order to reform the Liturgy was pastoral discipline, for example.

Peace and God bless

 

[Dioscorus]

Why are you so full of hate for these simple practices, these simple traditions? This is just insane - the SSPX is not where it is because of Ad Orientem.

Many OF masses celebrate facing East.
Almost all Eastern Liturgies face East.
And every single EF done by preists in healthy communion with Rome faces East.

Your posts are violent, aggressive and uncalled for.

P.S - what liturgy do the Copts use? what language is it in and which way to they face?

Look, there are plenty of things available on the Internet which will answer the SSPX:
sspx.agenda.tripod.com/

If you want to know more about the Coptic rite, call St. Mary’s in Los Angeles. It’s at 2701 Newell Street. The Mass is at 10:30 a.m. on Sunday. All are welcome. Ask to see Msgr Falium.

 

[Freshman88]

You’re right. SSPX is where it is because of a schismatic act.

so what does the Coptic Church have for its liturgy? is it the OF? Or is it an Eastern liturgy?

 

[Dioscorus]

The Last Supper was a highly ritualized Seder/traditional Jewish home service. It wasn’t like one of our meals. It was a worship service where every action had ritual significance, and prayers were even CHANTED IN A RELIGIOUS, NON-EVERYDAY LANGUAGE (Hebrew). Imagine that!

What was the Music, “Gregorian Chant”, and the language was “Yiddish”.

(LOL)

 

[Dioscorus]

Yes, according to Jewish custom, Jesus would have faced east as would the apostles.

Was there an altar rail, too?

 

[Freshman88]

Look, there are plenty of things available on the Internet which will answer the SSPX:
sspx.agenda.tripod.com/

I wasn’t answering for the SSPX - I was defending Ad Orientem, a perfectly legitimate and ancient tradition.

If you want to know more about the Coptic rite, call St. Mary’s in Los Angeles. It’s at 2701 Newell Street. The Mass is at 10:30 a.m. on Sunday. All are welcome. Ask to see Msgr Falium.

I have no intention of reaching this parish or tis Msgr. I assume you have attended a Coptic liturgy - what language is it done in and which way does the priest face? Is it the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom? St. Basil? St. Mark?

 

[Freshman88]

Was there an altar rail, too?

no there wasn’t but successive generations of the Church decided that an altar rail should be put in place. The altar rail is thousands of years old, its one of the most ancient liturgical practices.

Do the Copts have iconostasi or altar rails?

 

[SFD]

SFD:

Yes, heretics, schismatics, and apostates are outside the Church by their own act.

The excommunicated may be outside by an ecclesiastical censure if this is stated in the censure. One cannot say that all excommunicants are “Outside the Church”.

Check Mystici Corporis…it’s based the Bellarmine and membership in the Church as a visible fact.

The entire question is based on membership in the Church…not entirely on ecclesiastical censure. It’s all contained in the Catholic Encyclopedia…if only some would read it in it’s context.

Your post doesn’t compute. Go back to your duties.

Just answer the post. My duty right now is to expose your ideas as unorthodox…which is not all that difficult.

SFD

 

[SFD]

We all have other things to do.

I was dragged into an argument. I have no place there. I don’t even know who these people are. I am a Coptic Catholic, which is a schismatic church from the Coptic Orthodox Church. We are uniates - in union with Rome. I attend St. Mary’s Coptic Church in Los Angeles. I have been smeared, and I am unhappy about it.
Go back to doing what you are doing, and I will too. Leave me out of it.

Dioscorus,

Is your normal mode of operation to smear others when you feel like you’ve been "smeared’?

Retract your comment about me being several pseudonyms here…it is false.

SFD