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Dioscorus
Guest
Your are right. I don’t belong to the Orthodox. I belong to the schismatic group of the Coptic Church, united to Rome. So, I guess I am 'un-orthodox"
You wouldn’t know orthodox if you fell on the east side of your face. You belong to a schismatic sect - what do you know. Ooops, or do you belong to that other weird group? what are they called?
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Dioscorus
Guest
What? You don’t trust what I say. You have some nerve
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Dioscorus
Guest
In the Upper Room they all faced East? How funny. Do modern day Jews, when they have their Seders, they all face East??
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Lazerlike42
Guest
I cannot find any reference to this practice. This does not mean that it is not true, but I cannot find any reference.
I have been able to find references to a practice of Jews facing east when in prayer, because they are facing Jerusalem, but nothing specific to the Passover. In fact, Jesus was in Jerusalem during the Passover, so the whole concept of facing east would seem not to be relevant. If anything, I would speculate that He probably faced whichever direction the Temple was in from the building in which they celebrated the Passover.
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SFD
Guest
Is this what you call a “personal attack”?
You seem to have no responses that rely on any substance nor any Catholic sources.
SFD
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SemperFidelis
Guest
How do you know about SFD, considering you just signed up today and he hasn’t even posted in this thread since about page 2 or any of the other threads you’ve posted in?
in the interest of fairness and warn you you are dealing with a kid playing internet games. No doubt on spring break with idle hands.
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Your_Abbott
Guest
Why are you cross-examining me? It all none of your business. If you want to attend, then you have the address. You can make a two-fer out of it, visit the new Cathedral.
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Your_Abbott
Guest
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stmaria
Guest
Do you have a degree in theology and do you walk on the beach? Is your name mgrfin?
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SemperFidelis
Guest
Considering your track record, who would?
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Chuck_H
Guest
I judge Lefebrve wrong.
Luther was wrong about many things. Luther was right about many things. I have been through the Luther documents with a Franciscan theologian who was 70 at the time we went through them so he was coming from a traditional school and he was free to admit Luther’s correct criticisms and pointed out with clarity his errors.
The Roman Church of Luther’s time (RC) was marked by the effect of power. It’s emphasis on the duality of the Body of Christ was at least self serving to keep the reins of power temporally as well as spiritually. As a tridentine catholic I had no feeling that the mass was an intimate and holy practice for me as a participant. Subsequently I gave it up and fell away.
For centuries the Vatican had been an insulated entity. Then John XXIII became pope and a unique phenomenon took place. This Holy man would don a simple cassock and walk among the people of Rome and listen. I think he heard the despair of what had been considered the “laity” and saw the inequality that marked the institutional church.
The Novus Ordum brought us back into the celebration and awe of the mass. It lets us hear the words and prayers that remind us of Jesus, His promise, His Love. It returns the mass to the gathering of the faithful rather than the silent and abstracted ceremony where the priest is the consecrated and we are the lucky ones he will intercess for.
We are the people of God, a royal priesthood for whom the priest at the altar presides over our mass. That is to be repeated, it is Our Mass given to us by Jesus and the Fathers of the Church.
While we have had popes since that may or may not have regretted John XXIII’s actions, none have had the will or the power to overcome them and re-institute what was before. In that regard I see the Holy Spirit moving in the Church and He will not be denied.
Luther was wrong about many things. Luther was right about many things. I have been through the Luther documents with a Franciscan theologian who was 70 at the time we went through them so he was coming from a traditional school and he was free to admit Luther’s correct criticisms and pointed out with clarity his errors.
The Roman Church of Luther’s time (RC) was marked by the effect of power. It’s emphasis on the duality of the Body of Christ was at least self serving to keep the reins of power temporally as well as spiritually. As a tridentine catholic I had no feeling that the mass was an intimate and holy practice for me as a participant. Subsequently I gave it up and fell away.
For centuries the Vatican had been an insulated entity. Then John XXIII became pope and a unique phenomenon took place. This Holy man would don a simple cassock and walk among the people of Rome and listen. I think he heard the despair of what had been considered the “laity” and saw the inequality that marked the institutional church.
The Novus Ordum brought us back into the celebration and awe of the mass. It lets us hear the words and prayers that remind us of Jesus, His promise, His Love. It returns the mass to the gathering of the faithful rather than the silent and abstracted ceremony where the priest is the consecrated and we are the lucky ones he will intercess for.
We are the people of God, a royal priesthood for whom the priest at the altar presides over our mass. That is to be repeated, it is Our Mass given to us by Jesus and the Fathers of the Church.
While we have had popes since that may or may not have regretted John XXIII’s actions, none have had the will or the power to overcome them and re-institute what was before. In that regard I see the Holy Spirit moving in the Church and He will not be denied.
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SemperFidelis
Guest
You already posted this one page ago, but you were Dioscorus at the time. Did you forget? Glad I could remind you.
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Lazerlike42
Guest
Hey, are there any…You know, I’m just not sure.
Christians here?.. We’re supposed to know them
…by their fruits and love for each other.
…/
_:ehh:
…Then there…I think
…definitely aren’t…you’re right
…/
:dts:____:shrug:___
Christians here?.. We’re supposed to know them
…by their fruits and love for each other.
…/
_:ehh:
…Then there…I think
…definitely aren’t…you’re right
…/
:dts:____:shrug:___
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pnewton
Guest
To the kid who is posting under many names:
Would you please consider the logic of this weird tactic of late of posting under many names with the hit and run tactics. Believe me, you do nothing but undermine the very argument you attempt to promote. Please, stick to one name and stick to facts. This is the same thing I have asked of traditionalists here. Please police the extremist on your side so they so not paint all in a bad light. The truth is, all of us faithful Catholics are all on the same side.
Would you please consider the logic of this weird tactic of late of posting under many names with the hit and run tactics. Believe me, you do nothing but undermine the very argument you attempt to promote. Please, stick to one name and stick to facts. This is the same thing I have asked of traditionalists here. Please police the extremist on your side so they so not paint all in a bad light. The truth is, all of us faithful Catholics are all on the same side.
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stmaria
Guest
So the Mass of countless saints, martyrs, and over 250 Popes was a silent abstracted ceremony without awe? You clearly never grasped the true meaning of the sacrifice of the Mass.
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The priest does more than just “preside” over the mass.
The fact that the Traditional Mass still exists today just as it did during the time of Pope Gregory in spite of churchmen who have tried to destroy this Holy Mass in every way possible, is proof that the Holy Spirit is protecting this most holy sacrifice.
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Derbingo
Guest
We all should copy and post it. Lots of good things there.
Isn’t this thread about done. There is no one posting on the topic.
I think we are all tired of Archbishop Lefebrve and Martin Luther. What more can you say about two people who are dead and outside the Church.
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Lazerlike42
Guest
Some people are better able to receive what Christ has to offer in the Mass by attending a Pauline rite Mass.
The Mass has always been set to complement particular cultures. The Eastern Catholic Liturgies exist as they do because of the particular cultures into which they were introduced. They were formed in such a way so as to balance the need to be relevant to the culture in which they were celebrated with the Divine focus inherint in the Mass - that is, that the Mass is ultimately directed toward God, not man.
The Pauline rite of Mass is a Mass that was formed in order to reach out to people of today’s culture, just as the other various Liturgies that have been celebrated throughout history were.
Now some people may prefer and get the most out of a Tridentine Mass. They are permitted to attend. However, some folks, like this fellow here, may receive the most when attending a Pauline rite Mass.
Remember, the Grace available at any Mass is the same: it is the Grace of the body of Christ. However, in order to receive any Grace, we must be open to it. We receive Grace from any Sacrament insofar as we dispose ourselves and do not put up obstacles to it. Some people may be able to dispose themselves better at a Pauline rite, due to the familiarity with the language, the greater involvement in the prayers that the laity have, or any number of other things.
If this is not the case for you, that is perfectly ok, but please don’t insult pr question the honesty of those who find the most Grace in a Pauline Mass, something I have seen done far too often. If this man found himself lost during the years of the Tridentine Mass and has been able to return to Christ thanks to the Pauline rite, rejoice!
I think that the parable of the Prodigal Son is tremendously valuable for this sort of discussion. We always remember what happened to the younger son, but we ought to pay attention as well to the older son. When the younger son returned, the older son did not rejoice and join the banquet. He was angry with the younger son and even with the Father. He complained about what he had received over the years, and now what was being done for the younger son.
This is precisely what happens so often with traditionalist movement regarding the Mass. The Pauline Mass has helped countless people return to or find the Church, including Chuck here, myself, and folks like Dr. Hahn. However, rather than rejoice in our salvation - that we were dead and are alive again - there is a tendancy, just like the older son, to say, “what about me? I had to suffer through this Mass for so many years. What about me?” I believe God the Father would say the same thing that was said to the older son in the parable: “Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found”
In fact, the Holy Spirit has also guided and protected the Pauline rite of Mass.
According to Pius IX,
- Mirari Vos
Further quotations can be provided. The point I am making is that you do not have to prefer the Pauline rite of Mass to the rite of Pius V, but according to pre-Vatican II Church teaching, it is impossible that the rite of Paul VI could be detrimental to the Church or to the faith of the people.
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