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Chuck_H
Guest
Oh I do agree he is great and did an excellent scholarly work. The trouble is…the “rat” (used here with GREAT affection but egotistical wrath) did such an excellent job in his work there was simply no need for any other defense or argument. Having run into someone who puts the argument in such terms it is superfluous to continue.
Googling ALWAYS pays!
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stmaria
Guest
The majority of those that go to the Traditional Mass believe that the Novus Ordo is valid and that Pope Paul had the authority to promulgate a new rite.That is not the question. The question is was it wise to make so many changes in such a short time. Was it wise to go with the changes suggested by a small group of theologians instead of the Mass voted on at Vatican II.
Even Pope Benedict has written about the need for the priest and the congregation to face east in certain parts of the mass, Bishops have written about the need to move the sign of peace to a different part of the Mass, they have questioned the proper place for the tabernacle, the proper music, they have questioned the practice of communion in the hand. They have question the idea of the priest having so many options in his choice of prayers for the Mass, they have questioned the quality of the translation from Latin to the vernacular
All of this questioning will be good for the Church and help to organically grow the liturgy.
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Derbingo
Guest
Why don’t you get on topic, and respond. You are an SSPX spokesman. I don’t see this Mgrfin on. Maybe he went to that great church in the sky where the angels sing in Latin, “Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus”.
Organically grow the liturgy?. What, are we growing green beans? The Pope can come along to change the whole thing to anything he prefers. Immediately, without discussion. You don’t want any change. What you want is Latin only, communion on the tongue, altars turned to the Eastern Sky, 8 year old altar boys, bells to wake up the congregation, Latin/English missals for those to follow along who so wish. No lay readers, just priests mumbling through the “Last Gospel”.
We would like you to answer the question of the thread…do you have an answer?
Do you want to tell us again that the current Mass is a throw back to something the Protestants wanted during the 16th century, that you see such similiarities?
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dyspepsic
Guest
Whenever I get ready to respond to any post, I check out the person I am responding to, and who is on line with me.
Forexample, At this point, I see that up to now you have made today 18 posts, all on Tradtional Treads. By reading your posts of today and of the past I can see what you have said and where you are going, and where you are coming from
Lots of information on an individual is available, who they are when they jointed, and you can read their past posts. You don’t know that I have a bad stomach, but you might discern that because my name says something about acid indigestion.
Your name indicates you may be a woman, but that is to assume too much. You could be a 6 foot man, weighing 250 pounds. Maybe you are gay, and you are trying to hook up with some trad guy.
You seem out to get this person Mgrfin. I don’t know if he is a guy, but you are chasing after him; maybe he is dead. Maybe he just doesn’t want to show his face here anymore. Maybe he is banned from this site,. Who knows, and who cares?
Why are you pushing a latin Mass? Is it important that you push Communion on the tongue? I don’t anyone who sees this as an issue, let alone call it a reaction in the Middle Ages against Protestants.
Why are you seeking to divide Catholicism. The Mass is the Mass, latin or English. But I find it foolishness to reject the Participated Mass, which is symbolic of the priesthood of all the faithful.
Why are you an SSPX person?
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SFD
Guest
What are you talking about? You know darn well that I hold to what the Church teaches. I have read the pre-Vatican II theology manuals. That is exactly why I believe what I believe…and you know that bear06.
Shawn McElhinney did what? Prove that the Pope has the authority to change ecclesiastical laws and issue new disciplines?
Just a hypothetical…so only apply Church teaching here…does a Pope have the power to issue a discipline that is mortally injurious to the faithful? Does he have the power to alter Divine Law?
SFD
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GerardP
Guest
Maybe. Being patient with people sure isn’t getting them to engage in an honest discussion. Material heresy seems to be what too many people on this board “feel” is authentic Catholic teaching.
How so? Should I thank you for your consideration? Should I be honored that you considerately called my comment “goofy”?
Either explain how I’m off with the analogy or stop harassing me with your ridicule.
If I’m wrong, show me where. I want real discussion, not spitting wars.
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Your_Abbott
Guest
I don’t know who this mgrfn person is. But I am able to read most of your recent posts. Here is one from June 9 of last year.
Quote:
As Cardinal Ottaviani would say later “ the Novus Ordo …represents…. a striking departure from the Catholic Theology of the Mass”
I see you were enamoured with the idea of opposing the NO. Cardinal Ottaviani, the Grand Inquisitor. He had nothing to say or add to the Council. Anyone who had an idea more than what was in the penny catechism, he would haul up on charges of teaching suspicious doctrines. The guy was a nut.
Ill ask what others have asked. Why are you an SSPX? Why are you here pushing this agenda? Don’t you realize these people are all schismatics?
They needs our prayers, not support on these forums.
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GerardP
Guest
Here’s your error:
Here’s the correct view of things:
Even with contempt in your writing it sounds better than anything else this side of Heaven.
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SFD
Guest
What, are they different than the pre-Vatican II manuals?
SFD
P.S. I guess you can’t answer that question.
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Your_Abbott
Guest
I have impatience with ignorance, and your silly attitude. Im taking you on on this one.
After Ratinger became Pope, they told him, 'hey, look, you are the Supreme Pontiff, and you have Supreme, full, immediate and ordinary power in the Church. Your are the Bishop of the Roman Catholic Church. Your are “Romanus Pontifex”. You are the Vicar of Christ on earth. You are the Pastor of the Universal Church. You have Immediate Power, meaning that you can intervene directly on all level of ecclesiastical jurisdiction." There is nothing that you cannot do.
“No appeal or recourse is permitted against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff”. Benedict, you are the Pope. (canon 333)
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Chuck_H
Guest
“The basic error of most of the innovations is to imagine that the new liturgy brings the holy sacrifice of the Mass nearer to the faithful, that shorn of its old rituals the Mass now enters into the substance of our lives. For the question is whether we better meet Christ in the Mass by soaring up to Him, or by dragging Him down into our own pedestrian, workaday world. The innovators would replace holy intimacy with Christ by an unbecoming familiarity. The new liturgy actually threatens to frustrate the confrontation with Christ, for it discourages reverence in the face of mystery, precludes awe, and all but extinguishes a sense of sacredness. What really matters, surely, is not whether the faithful feel at home at Mass, but whether they are drawn out of their ordinary lives into the world of Christ-whether their attitude is the response of ultimate reverence, whether they are imbued with the reality of Christ.”–Dietrich von Hildebrand “The Case for the Latin Mass”
Here is the crux of the matter. and thanks to GeraldP for bringing it up.
Do we better meet Christ by soaring up? Or do we better meet Christ in our own pedestrian workaday world. (note I distinctly changed Van Hildebrand’s words for a purpose)
The Son of God, the only Begotten Son God came down directly into our own pedestrian workplace. For thirty years he lived as a carpenter in and around Nazareth. He built furniture and houses, talked with His neighbors, played games with His friends, sat and listened in the Synagogue as the people read and discussed the Torah and scripture. He made it a specific point to Be One Of Us and Be With Us. When His ministry began, He did not teach with hypothesis but by parable so that all of us could understand. He never disdained any of us. His kindness to the adulteress is exemplary beyond anything ever seen before or since. While being fully God he was fully human and met us face to face with a warm heart and a kind and gentle nature toward the least of His Created. He looked at us and found us good even when we were at our lowest ebb.
we can never “soar up to Him” He always lifts us up and from His living example and grace makes us a holy people especially when we are in our own pedestrian workaday world.
If we speak english he talks to us in english, if french, french. if swahili, swahili.
Our own pedestrian workaday world was made Holy by Him. and by that making we are sanctified.
He asked us to share a sacrificial meal with him and made it from the humblest of materials; simple bread, common wine and into it He thrust himself, Creator of all the eye can see and science can investigate.
This God, this Christ became one of us, unseparated by anything. He was One Of Us, true man while remaining true God.
He has not changed. He desires our heart not our liturgy. For the one that looks He is there, Body and Blood on the Altar, our God but also one of us. He requires no latin, no incense, no special hymns, no particular vestments. His attention is focused on the person in the third row tenth seat down who desperately needs His attention today so their soul is not lost. This is our God, the Hound of Heaven, the Man from Nazareth.
He wants, desires and demands that “unbecoming familiarity” with us so that He can be with us and make us holy. Its the only way we can ever make it back to Him. He has declared Himself our Brother and made His father our Abba.
All four Gospels make this real. The acts of the Apostles make this real. Paul makes this real.
The Pauline mass brings us back to this reality. He is one with us in language and fellowship and “unbecoming familiarity”. He trusts us (only God knows why) and makes Himself vulnerable again as the One who loves us and makes us His people.
Amen!
Here is the crux of the matter. and thanks to GeraldP for bringing it up.
Do we better meet Christ by soaring up? Or do we better meet Christ in our own pedestrian workaday world. (note I distinctly changed Van Hildebrand’s words for a purpose)
The Son of God, the only Begotten Son God came down directly into our own pedestrian workplace. For thirty years he lived as a carpenter in and around Nazareth. He built furniture and houses, talked with His neighbors, played games with His friends, sat and listened in the Synagogue as the people read and discussed the Torah and scripture. He made it a specific point to Be One Of Us and Be With Us. When His ministry began, He did not teach with hypothesis but by parable so that all of us could understand. He never disdained any of us. His kindness to the adulteress is exemplary beyond anything ever seen before or since. While being fully God he was fully human and met us face to face with a warm heart and a kind and gentle nature toward the least of His Created. He looked at us and found us good even when we were at our lowest ebb.
we can never “soar up to Him” He always lifts us up and from His living example and grace makes us a holy people especially when we are in our own pedestrian workaday world.
If we speak english he talks to us in english, if french, french. if swahili, swahili.
Our own pedestrian workaday world was made Holy by Him. and by that making we are sanctified.
He asked us to share a sacrificial meal with him and made it from the humblest of materials; simple bread, common wine and into it He thrust himself, Creator of all the eye can see and science can investigate.
This God, this Christ became one of us, unseparated by anything. He was One Of Us, true man while remaining true God.
He has not changed. He desires our heart not our liturgy. For the one that looks He is there, Body and Blood on the Altar, our God but also one of us. He requires no latin, no incense, no special hymns, no particular vestments. His attention is focused on the person in the third row tenth seat down who desperately needs His attention today so their soul is not lost. This is our God, the Hound of Heaven, the Man from Nazareth.
He wants, desires and demands that “unbecoming familiarity” with us so that He can be with us and make us holy. Its the only way we can ever make it back to Him. He has declared Himself our Brother and made His father our Abba.
All four Gospels make this real. The acts of the Apostles make this real. Paul makes this real.
The Pauline mass brings us back to this reality. He is one with us in language and fellowship and “unbecoming familiarity”. He trusts us (only God knows why) and makes Himself vulnerable again as the One who loves us and makes us His people.
Amen!
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bear06
Guest
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SFD
Guest
Then tell us why they are different. And don’t they have them in the seminaries anymore?
SFD
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Your_Abbott
Guest
Sure theyre in seminaries, a place apparently you have never been.
For example, you might learn the Church’s stance on Limbo.
And also, that undefined teachings of the Church can change.
Two things apparently you are ignorant of.
Get some new books, or a current one that you can quote to us.
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Your_Abbott
Guest
Ooh Derbingo, you have some sharp mind. You sure you’re not that mgr fella?
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Chuck_H
Guest
An excellent point and it proves the rule. God has allowed Himself that basic interaction with man His creation trusting and also knowing some would reject and abuse Him. That reveals His great love for us. What a wonderful God!
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