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aball1035
Guest
I’m wondering why Archbishop Lefebvre started the SSPX and ordained new priests. Why did he do this? What was the purpose?
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malphono
Guest
I don’t claim to know the whole story, but I do know that one of the reasons was to preserve the pre-conciliar liturgical tradition. The SSPX was established as a religious institute of Ponticifal right, and was given that status by (interestingly enough) Paul VI. If it is ever “regularized,” I presume it will retain that status.
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Sir_Anthony
Guest
Well, in a nutshell, Lefebvre felt that VII was hijacked by the liberals and modernists who misintepreted the whole Council (Lefebvre did sign all of the decrees of the Council), he felt in the aftermath there was wholesale destruction of the Church, when Paul VI issued the New Mass, he felt that it was a deficient Mass, so he decided to open a seminary to train traditionalist priests in the old rite, after moving around a bit, it found a permanent place at Econe in France where it remains today. In the early 70’s the SSPX was recognized by the Church, but by the mid 70’s thing went afoul and there was attempts to suppress it. After the suppression attempts, it limped along in the eye of the Church, in 1983 there was a splinter group that formed SSPV. Then as Lefebvre was aging and getting closer to death, he thought it neccessary to consecrate bishops who would carry on his work (the four priests chosen were quite young), JPII thought it wasn’t neccessary for the consecration, so he forbade it as consecrating Bishops requires papal approval in most cases. Lefebvre perform the consecrations, the Pope excommunicated him, the four priests, and the co-consecrating Bishop.
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malphono
Guest
Actually that’s not quite right: Ecône is in the French-speaking part of Switzerland (La Suisse-Romande).
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Chatter163
Guest
Actually, after a series of public reprimands from the Holy See and Paul VI himself in 1975, Archbishop Lefebvre was suspended a divinis in 1976. I would not call the SSPX “limping along” or Rome’s suspension “attempts to suppress,” as if either was half-hearted. The Church was clear at the time that the SSPX could no longer operate and that Abp. could no longer function sacramentally.
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malphono
Guest
Interesting too, is that that was in the waning years of Paul VI. It was never really evident who it was that was"clear that the SSPX could no longer operate." I’m not an SSPX-er, yet I have my theories on that, (based on a lot more than hearsay) but have no intention of discussing the matter here.
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Chatter163
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malphono
Guest
Think about it. Paul VI gave the SSPX “Pontifical right” and subsequently suspended the lot of them. Isn’t that an interesting dichotomy. Yeah, I know, the party line “oh, things changed” but the question then becomes: where along the line did they change? Was it Lefebvre (who seems to have been very consistent (to say the least) and “held fast” to his position) or was it those “in power” in Rome? Hmmm.
That’s as much as I will say. It’s not a statement of fact (I wasn’t there) nor is it an opinion. Merely fodder for thought.
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latinmasslover
Guest
He was disgusted by the changes that were taking place in the Church, so he tried to retire. Fortunately, seminarians came to him, begging for help. They did not want to be ordained/perform sacraments in the modernized/Protestant fashion. So, the dear Archbishop set to work.
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Virgile
Guest
Hello,
the catholic Church in France experienced a real Revolution after Vatican II. Beginning around 1965, a kind of “new religion” arouse from this Revolution.
Some exemples…
From 1970 to 1976, I was an altar boy. It was absolutely normal, after the Mass, to throw the “bread” in the garbage… except when the priest had to “re-use” the “bread” for another “celebration”…
In a French seminary, in 1986, it was a motive of expulsion if you were seen praying at the “oratory”… especially if the prayer was an official prayer of the Church.
In the same French seminary, in 1988, a priest in charge of teaching theology to the seminarist began his first course by these words: “the Resurrection of Christ was a mythological event and Christ never ressuscited from the deads”…
Reading in public the texts of the Concile Vatican II would have been the proof that you were a partisan of “Rome”, hence an “integrist” and consequently a “fascist”… and plenty of other words I can’t find in my English dictionary.
Etc. etc. ad nauseam.
I have hundred of other exemples at your disposal.
By the way, I’m French, and I was a seminarist in the 80’s.
Now you have some idea of why Mg. Lefebvre did what he did.
I did not say that he had the right to do that, or did not have the right to do that but I certainly believe that he had to do it.
Have a nice day.
V.
the catholic Church in France experienced a real Revolution after Vatican II. Beginning around 1965, a kind of “new religion” arouse from this Revolution.
Some exemples…
From 1970 to 1976, I was an altar boy. It was absolutely normal, after the Mass, to throw the “bread” in the garbage… except when the priest had to “re-use” the “bread” for another “celebration”…
In a French seminary, in 1986, it was a motive of expulsion if you were seen praying at the “oratory”… especially if the prayer was an official prayer of the Church.
In the same French seminary, in 1988, a priest in charge of teaching theology to the seminarist began his first course by these words: “the Resurrection of Christ was a mythological event and Christ never ressuscited from the deads”…
Reading in public the texts of the Concile Vatican II would have been the proof that you were a partisan of “Rome”, hence an “integrist” and consequently a “fascist”… and plenty of other words I can’t find in my English dictionary.
Etc. etc. ad nauseam.
I have hundred of other exemples at your disposal.
By the way, I’m French, and I was a seminarist in the 80’s.
Now you have some idea of why Mg. Lefebvre did what he did.
I did not say that he had the right to do that, or did not have the right to do that but I certainly believe that he had to do it.
Have a nice day.
V.
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Timothysis
Guest
I do not believe one word of your post.
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603304529
Guest
Timothysis, the stories are similar from here in Ireland. Stories from people who were seminarians themselves. It happened in quite a few countries. No, I don’t have references. They’re called “anecdotes”. But yes, I have heard them from the horses’ mouths.
I suppose someone who questions these theories could be called a “Vatican 2 revolution” denier?
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cathguy
Guest
This is a real shame. I am not an SSPXer, but Tim, you need to understand historical realities.
After the Council in the United States an unnamed parish priest asked his parishioners to bring their old missals and sacramentals to Church with them the following week. Ushers walked up and down the isles with garbage cans the following week.
At MY parish, following the Council, the altar was defaced and destroyed. Several statues were given to members of the laity who were “ordered” to “dispose of them.”
Recently, a good and holy priest restored the sanctuary. Some of the statues miraculously reappeared. Some members of the laity said they had “disposed” of the statues as ordered… but put them where they could be found again.
At a parish I attended post the Council, the bread for the altar was baked by the laity who attended Mass. Cinnamon and raisins were added to improved the taste. “Extra” was given away and brought home.
You can choose not to believe these things. But they are REAL. I saw them.
Furthermore, they still go on.
At a parish down the street from me there is NO crucifix. At another parish in my diocese the priest refuses to use the words “Jesus” or “Church” during the Mass itself. It is “divisive” to do so apparently.
God bless.
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cathguy
Guest
Tim,
Another story from a former schismatic who recently returned to the Church.
The year after the council she saw an add. A convent was cleaning out their stuff and was going to throw away many religious articles. People were welcome to come and take what they wanted.
She responded to the add. Upon arriving at the convent she rang the doorbell and a young woman in lay dress with a short haircut and a manly demeanor answered. The woman enquired about the add. The nun dressed as a man gruffly pointed to the sitting room.
There were piles of papers, rosary beads, scapulars, and the like. There was a large dumpster outside the convent.
The woman who showed up at the convent began to cry softly as she picked up what she could to bring it out to her car.
As she was working an elderly nun in full habit began making her way down the stairs struggling with a large statue of St. Joseph.
Immediately she went to help the nun.
The nun said, crying, “I prayed you would come. I don’t understand what is happening. Please, he was man of the house for a long time. Would you take him for me?”
Now listen, this story was published by the woman who returned to the Church and now attends Novus Ordo Masses in New Oxford Review a couple of years ago.
This woman took that statue and left the convent, and became a sedevantist on the spot.
She only returned to the Church after the election of Benedict XVI.
Tim… please God… I am praying you read history and learn about what the forces of evil did to our beautiful Church in the years past the Council. You can choose to believe the truth or not. Look up the article at the NOR website. I will find it and give you the link.
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Corki
Guest
You are either very young or have fortunately lived a sheltered Catholic life.
I am in the US and was never in seminary (I’m a girl
). But I was an illicit lector/altar server at my college Newman Center in the 70s. * Some of the things that went on in the sacristy were not too far off from what you disbelieve. And our pastor was actually pretty traditional. It was a time of innovation without limits or controls. “Out with the old, if it’s new, let’s try it.”The fact that we are here in 2009 and some people don’t belive this happened 30 years ago is proof positive that the Church shall always endure. Any other “organization” would have imploded.*
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cathguy
Guest
You are either very young or have fortunately lived a sheltered Catholic life.
I am in the US and was never in seminary (I’m a girl
The fact that we are here in 2009 and some people don’t belive this happened 30 years ago is proof positive that the Church shall always endure. Any other “organization” would have imploded.*
God bless you Corki!
The good news is that these young kids who didn’t see the Church in the 70s and have no clue what it is like NOT to have the likes of JPII and B.XVI as Pope have difficulty believing what it was like. That is good news indeed.
That said, abuses are still rife. I wonder how Tim has been able to avoid them.
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malphono
Guest
As other posters have already said, yes, indeed, seminary circuses certainly were available in the US too.
Without mentioning names or actual location, one that I know of (from, I think, 1969) involved a “fraternity mass” with seminarians sitting on the floor of the lounge in their jockey shorts around a coffee table. The priest was barefooted, in jeans and tee shirt. The “chalice” was a glass tumbler. The “paten” was a plate from the refectory. The “wine” was Coke, and the “bread” was potato chips. There was no missal: the whole thing was impromptu and ad lib. And no, it wasn’t a one-shot deal. It happened regularly (at least weekly) for several years. (Not sure when it stopped, but it was not when the priest ran off and eloped with some sort of former religious sister. It continued unabated under another.) By the way, the priest in question was a professor and house spiritual director.
One other that I will recount had to do with the altar bread for the community liturgy. Oh, it was unleavened, alright, but similar to what cathguy said, in this case honey was added, both for flavor and texture.
And no one dared complain on pain of immediate expulsion. Yes, the bishop-ordinary knew what was going on. One of the auxiliaries was an ardent supporter of the whole travesty.
Amazing that some of the guys who survived all that turned out to be very orthodox, and some (including a bishop or 2) are now proponents of the EF. The rest (majority) of the student body turned out to be pretty much like their teachers.
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oldmass
Guest
I think it would be helpful to know Timothysis’ age, and the length of time he has been a Catholic. If he’s very young and unknowledgeable, I would leave well enough alone, and let him grow up a bit. If, however, he’s been around for awhile and is of mature years, he ought to know better. Then, by all means, declare open season on him!
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Timothysis
Guest
I am not going to be a target for anyone to “declare open season” on me. I am 42 years old and live in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I attend Mass at St. George, St. Agnes, St. Josephs Cathedral, Our Lady of Mercy, and have attended Mass at St. John’s in Plaquemine, St. Mary’s in Cottonport, and St. Bernadette’s in Panama City Beach Florida. St. George is practically in my backyard but I do not go there (often) because I do not care for the way the liturgy is celebrated there. Throughout my lifetime I have been to Mass all over the country because of family vacations and have never witnessed anything such as has been mentioned here.
What a very Catholic attitude you have.
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cathguy
Guest
I actually think the poster who mentioned “open season” was attempting to defend you. I think he was criticizing us a bit for piling on as it were.
That said, your denial of what you have read here is problematic. Simply because things are better in your diocese down south does NOT mean they are okay in other parts of the Country. It does NOT mean that they were okay in the years following VatII.
Why are you so defensive of the post VII establishment?
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