Archbishop Lefebvre

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I have a question…

Did Archbishop Lefebvre change the faith? He accepted Vatican II did he change the faith as Martin Luther did? Was he faithful to the faith, but illicitly ordained some Bishops to protect the faith?

Can I have some “progressive” opinion on this?

God Bless
Scylla
I’m not sure if you consider me “progressive”. I don’t but here’s a shot anyway.

It’s rather hard to say he accepted Vatican II. Accepted it as what? Here’s an interesting letter to Lefebvre from Paul VI (just a disclaimer, I’m not sure who’s website this is. I just found the letter here first). Lefebvre’s problems with the Church started long before the excommunication.

conglomination.com/cg/Lefebvre.htm

And from the SSPX’s own site and Lefebvre’s mouth:
Our position must be:
…we refuse …to follow the Rome of neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant tendencies which became clearly manifest during the Second Vatican Council and, after the Council, in all the reforms which issued from it. (Declaration of Archbishop Lefebvre, APPENDIX I)
sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q6_vaticanII.htm
 
I have a question…

Did Archbishop Lefebvre change the faith? He accepted Vatican II did he change the faith as Martin Luther did? Was he faithful to the faith, but illicitly ordained some Bishops to protect the faith?

Can I have some “progressive” opinion on this?

God Bless
Scylla
I do not know if this is progressive. I think this is probably true.

If it were not for Lefebvre there would be no moto proprio. There would be no preservation of the old rite today. Can’t prove that, but it seems probable. For those attached to the traditional Mass they have Lefebvre and the sspx to thank for its preservation. I have never been to an sspx Mass. I have met a few sspxers and they seem a bit odd to me in a number of ways, paranoid, uncharitable, angry, irrational. Some of Williamson’s statements seem bizarre. God love and bless them all and thank God for them. Without them the Mass of the ages would be gone.
 
I do not know if this is progressive. I think this is probably true.

If it were not for Lefebvre there would be no moto proprio. There would be no preservation of the old rite today. Can’t prove that, but it seems probable. For those attached to the traditional Mass they have Lefebvre and the sspx to thank for its preservation. I have never been to an sspx Mass. I have met a few sspxers and they seem a bit odd to me in a number of ways, paranoid, uncharitable, angry, irrational. Some of Williamson’s statements seem bizarre. God love and bless them all and thank God for them. Without them the Mass of the ages would be gone.
Actually there is a strong case that Mgr Lefebvre, perhaps unintentionally, laid the groundwork for the FSSP and similar priestly societies. In his 1978 audience with JP II, Mgr Lefebvre offered to accept Vatican II interpreted ‘in the light of tradtion.’
The pope liked this idea, and later it was used to provide the doctrinal basis of the “indult” priestly societies. In another letter from the seventies, Lefebvre, as if anticipating certain provisions of the motu proprio, proposed that Catholics [of Latin rite] should be able to choose the ‘rite family’ to which they would belong.

Directly and indirectly, Mgr Lefebvre had a preponderant influence in the great movement to restore the traditional mass.
 
Oh. I get it. It is just like a bank robber. He validly has money in his possession but he got it illicitly.
Whatever you get or do not get, the Vatican recognizes the validity of the illicit consecration of the SSPX bishops.
 
I do not know if this is progressive. I think this is probably true.

If it were not for Lefebvre there would be no moto proprio. There would be no preservation of the old rite today. Can’t prove that, but it seems probable.
Agatha Christie got an indult for Britain. Pope Paul was a fan of her detective novels, so when she wrote complaining that many fine buildings were designed for the old Mass, and it would be destruction to abandon it entirely, he obliged.

You can of course be cynical, but then should we be cynical in return and say SSPX has served its purpose, now abandon them?

I rather have Agatha Christie’s way of doing things than a schism.
 
Because Arch. Lefebvre & Bishop Castro Mayer --who together consecrated the 4 bishops --where themselves validly consecrated and had Apostolic Succession.
That is the bottom line.

And the Vatican acknowledges their validity, that means Sunday obligation fulfilled.

==============================================
There were alot of “middlemen” out to “get” the Archbishop, no?
I think that is obvious. Especially when we hear now that there was an attempted coverup on the findings of those nine Cardinals back in 1986. JPII excommunicated the wrong people, but then he was influenced by a lot of anti-trads. More like a lynch job which still hasn’t been quieted down.

===============================================
I rather have Agatha Christie’s way of doing things than a schism.
Was she Catholic? I know there were a lot of signatures on that petition who were not.
 
Actually there is a strong case that Mgr Lefebvre, perhaps unintentionally, laid the groundwork for the FSSP and similar priestly societies. In his 1978 audience with JP II, Mgr Lefebvre offered to accept Vatican II interpreted ‘in the light of tradtion.’
The pope liked this idea, and later it was used to provide the doctrinal basis of the “indult” priestly societies. In another letter from the seventies, Lefebvre, as if anticipating certain provisions of the motu proprio, proposed that Catholics [of Latin rite] should be able to choose the ‘rite family’ to which they would belong.

Directly and indirectly, Mgr Lefebvre had a preponderant influence in the great movement to restore the traditional mass.
**
Did he?

It might be more likely that the work of the Holy Spirit and the actions ofall who prayed for opportunity to have the Latin Mass available (while not involved in fighting with the Varican) were more responsible for a larger availability of the Latin Mass than were the sspx. Perhaps without the sspx creating bits of scandal over time, the Church would have restored the Latin Mass much sooner.

We don’t know what might have been in this regard. **
 
**
Did he?

It might be more likely that the work of the Holy Spirit and the actions ofall who prayed for opportunity to have the Latin Mass available (while not involved in fighting with the Varican) were more responsible for a larger availability of the Latin Mass than were the sspx. Perhaps without the sspx creating bits of scandal over time, the Church would have restored the Latin Mass much sooner.

We don’t know what might have been** in this regard.
:amen: the irregular status of Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX of a certainty led to a distrust of the movement advocating the TLM among the majority of Catholics, who rightly saw full union with Rome as something essential and to be preserved above all.

So for all we know it actually retarded the growth of the movement among faithful Catholics for the restoration of the EF 🤷
 
:amen: the irregular status of Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX of a certainty led to a distrust of the movement advocating the TLM among the majority of Catholics, who rightly saw full union with Rome as something essential and to be preserved above all.

So for all we know it actually retarded the growth of the movement among faithful Catholics for the restoration of the EF 🤷
Precisely. I’m in my 60s and don’t know anyone of my generation and older who doesn’t love and miss the Latin Mass. At the same time, the approach of sspx, its extraordinary demands and finally the excommuincations, felt a bit like my own family (Church) was under attack from within. The “in your face” attitudes of sspx (then and now) might have silenced many faithful who simply loved and truly missed the Latin Mass.
 
Precisely. I’m in my 60s and don’t know anyone of my generation and older who doesn’t love and miss the Latin Mass. At the same time, the approach of sspx, its extraordinary demands and finally the excommuincations, felt a bit like my own family (Church) was under attack from within. The “in your face” attitudes of sspx (then and now) might have silenced many faithful who simply loved and truly missed the Latin Mass.
Oh I do know people of that generation who certainly don’t miss it - my parents and the majority of their friends. But then they’re Croatian, and I believe Croatians had the Mass in Church Slavonic rather than Latin since at least the 1930s, which may partially explain it 🙂
 
His excellence archbishop Marcel Lefebvre has my gratitude. If it weren’t for him, we wouldn’t have the FSSP and the ICK, and all of the evils that were introduced into the church proceeding the Council and liturgical ‘reforms’ would likely go unnoticed. That Lefebvre has been and is being demonized by many in the church is, I think, travesty. Yes, he ordained four bishops without the directive of the Holy See – but time will tell, as will some future Pontiff, whether or no this man did what he did by inspiration of the Holy Ghost; or if it was simply a bad decision.

Meanwhile, let us pray for the repose of his soul, and if it be God’s will for us to know, the righteousness or insubordination he was exemplary of.

St. Joseph, pray for us.
 
Regarding the restoration of the TLM, Leferbve’s group did more to load it with negative baggage than anything. There were already individuals and groups going about it with lawful means. But even if that did provide influence, the Council of Trent’s brilliant decrees and reforms, for example, were motivated by a lack of morals and the heresies of the Protestants–God brings good out of evil, but that doesn’t make the evil praiseworthy.

In regards to the OP, here is another private revelation that may be of some interest. In Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich’s “Dolorous Passion of Jesus Christ” she foresees troubled times for the Church as well. But she also mentions another group who pains our Lord just as much who “passed on in disgust at the wounds of His Church, as the Levite passed the poor man who had fallen among the robbers. Like unto cowardly and faithless children, who desert their mother in the middle of the night at the sight of thieves and robbers, they fled from His wounded Spouse.”

There’s a right way and a wrong way to go about reform–Saints like Cajetan, Catherine of Siena, Basil the Great, Peter Damian, Athanasius, and many others, canonized and anonymous did it the right way. Others have gone about it the wrong way. The sins, however grave, within the Church, never justify even the smallest venial sin as a response.

Perhaps Lefebrve’s faith had become too intellectual–a mental exercise, rather than true childlike faith in the almighty power and divine providence of Jesus Christ—he forgot who was at the helm of the ship. He was a great theologian and prelate, which as history shows, has led to the downfall or near downfall of some (and some, like Hippolytus or Cyprian, were reconciled and became saints–both thought the Popes at their respective times Callistus I and Stephen I were being too amiable to heretics and effecting false communions with them). I don’t know anyone beside Our Lord Jesus Christ and weak individuals with delusions of grandeur who have had the audacity to even hint that they personally were the valiant fulfillment of a prophecy–to me, that gives some hint as to the mindset Lefebrve had after all of his success, especially in the African missions.

Only one person can reform His Church, the Bridegroom–and He will use weakest most unpredictable vessels to carry it out. Just look at Saints like Francis or Teresa who trusted in God’s will for the Church and saw prelates have miraculous changes of heart as a result. We should bring our petitions before the throne of God, as Our Father tells St.Catherine of Siena:

“Therefore I give My servants hunger and desire for My honor, and the salvation of souls, so that, constrained by their tears, I may mitigate the fury of My divine justice. Take, therefore, your tears and your sweat, drawn from the fountain of My divine love, and, with them, wash the face of My Spouse. I promise you, that, by this means, her beauty will be restored to her, not by the knife nor by cruelty, but peacefully, by humble and continued prayer, by the sweat and the tears shed by the fiery desire of My servants, and thus will I fulfill your desire if you, on your part, endure much, casting the light of your patience into the darkness of perverse man…again I repeat my promise, that through the long endurance of My servants I will reform My spouse. Wherefore I invite you to endure, Myself lamenting with you over her iniquities.”

How can we inflame others with the fire of divine charity if we separate ourselves from them? In the Dialogue, Our Father admonishes those who quarantine themselves from the problems in the Church, and simply throw stones contemptuously from a distance. Rather, we should burn with compassion for poor sinners, and heal them with the fire of divine charity.

It takes heroic patience and courage to do what these saints have done. Sadly, Lefebrve panicked and lost patience.

Matt. 8:24 And behold a great tempest arose in the sea, so that the boat was covered with waves, but he was asleep. 25 And they came to him, and awaked him, saying: Lord, save us, we perish. 26 And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

Commenting on this passage, St. Pius X declared:

“They err greatly, therefore, who lose faith during the storm, wishing for themselves and the Church a permanent state of perfect tranquillity, universal prosperity, and practical, unanimous and uncontested recognition of her sacred authority.”

There have been storms before and Our Lord has calmed them in His time. We must have patience, courage, faith, hope, and above all, divine charity.
 
**
Did he?

It might be more likely that the **work of the Holy Spirit and the actions ofall who prayed for opportunity to have the Latin Mass ****available (while not involved in fighting with the Varican) were more responsible for a larger availability of the Latin Mass than were the sspx. Perhaps without the sspx creating bits of scandal over time, the Church would have restored the Latin Mass much sooner.

We don’t know what might have been in this regard.
Maybe it was the Holy Spirit working thru the SSPX that kept the Latin Mass alive.

Cathrina, I hope you are around when Archbishop Lefebvre is canonized. I believe it will happen.

Do you accept apparition of the Holy Mother in the year 1634 that I posted? She said there would be a priest in the 20th century that would "restore the spirit of His priests. … With a wholly divine gentleness he will **lead consecrated souls to the service of God in religious houses **without making the Lord’s yoke weigh heavily upon them. He will hold in his hand the scales of the sanctuary for everything to be done in an orderly fashion for God to be glorified. This Prelate and Father will act as a **counterweight to the lukewarmness of souls consecrated in the priesthood and in religion… **

If you accept these words as true, then isn’t it possible that that prelate was Archbishop Lefebvre? Isn’t it possible?
 
Maybe it was the Holy Spirit working thru the SSPX that kept the Latin Mass alive.

Cathrina, I hope you are around when Archbishop Lefebvre is canonized. I believe it will happen.

Do you accept apparition of the Holy Mother in the year 1634 that I posted? She said there would be a priest in the 20th century that would "restore the spirit of His priests. … With a wholly divine gentleness he will **lead consecrated souls to the service of God in religious houses **without making the Lord’s yoke weigh heavily upon them. He will hold in his hand the scales of the sanctuary for everything to be done in an orderly fashion for God to be glorified. This Prelate and Father will act as a **counterweight to the lukewarmness of souls consecrated in the priesthood and in religion… **

If you accept these words as true, then isn’t it possible that that prelate was Archbishop Lefebvre? Isn’t it possible?
Certainly Archbishop Lefebvre acted in good conscience. But I think we can safely state that the Holy Spirit is NOT working through the SSPX. The Holy Spirit does not lead people to excommunicate themselves from the Catholic Church. Ever.
 
Certainly Archbishop Lefebvre acted in good conscience. But I think we can safely state that the Holy Spirit is NOT working through the SSPX. The Holy Spirit does not lead people to excommunicate themselves from the Catholic Church. Ever.
Yes he did act in good conscience.He also believe that canon law was on his side.Was he right? Maybe it will be Pope Benedict that has the final say.

1983 Code of Canon Law vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4W.HTM

Can. 1323 The following are not subject to a penalty when they have violated a law or precept: a person who acted coerced by grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or due to necessity or grave inconvenience unless the act is intrinsically evil or tends to the harm of souls;
Can. 1324 §1 The perpetrator of a violation is not exempt from a penalty, but the penalty established by law or precept must be tempered or a penance employed in its place if the delict was committed: by a person who was coerced by grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or **due to necessity **or grave inconvenience if the delict is intrinsically evil or tends to the harm of souls;

The Archbishop and the four consecrated Bishops all believed that what they were doing was out of grave fear for the Church. Does this law pertain to Lefebvre? I don’t know. Pope Benedict will one day address this issue.
 
Yes he did act in good conscience.He also believe that canon law was on his side.Was he right? Maybe it will be Pope Benedict that has the final say.

1983 Code of Canon Law vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4W.HTM

Can. 1323 The following are not subject to a penalty when they have violated a law or precept: a person who acted coerced by grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or due to necessity or grave inconvenience unless the act is intrinsically evil or tends to the harm of souls;
Can. 1324 §1 The perpetrator of a violation is not exempt from a penalty, but the penalty established by law or precept must be tempered or a penance employed in its place if the delict was committed: by a person who was coerced by grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or **due to necessity **or grave inconvenience if the delict is intrinsically evil or tends to the harm of souls;

The Archbishop and the four consecrated Bishops all believed that what they were doing was out of grave fear for the Church. Does this law pertain to Lefebvre? I don’t know. Pope Benedict will one day address this issue.
Does it matter? It has been discussed elsewhere, but John Paul II said that excommunication is for this life only and that the dead cannot be “un-excommunicated.” I think that the vast majority of those that are excommunicated for theological and canonical error feel compelled to act as they do. This was certainly true of those nuns that thought their mother superior was possessed of Mary. They had to be excommunicated, despite their sincerity, to avoid spreading heresy and scandal.

Because Lefebvre publically put forth the story that the hierarchy of the Church had entered into a secret pact with Freemasons to pervert the Church, this kind of scandal and heresy applies to his teachings as well.

On the other hand, I used to think that the four bishops consecrations were invalid, but I think now that they were merely illicit. Certainly SSPX remains in communion with the Church, although the relationship is tense, to say the least.
 
Does it matter? It has been discussed elsewhere, but John Paul II said that excommunication is for this life only and that the dead cannot be “un-excommunicated.”…
Not for the Archbishop it wouldn’t…he won’t be in Hell and suddenly get transported to heaven with a lifting.

It would be - hypothetically speaking - a clearing up of things on this side of the pearly gates.

DustinsDad
 
Not for the Archbishop it wouldn’t…he won’t be in Hell and suddenly get transported to heaven with a lifting.

It would be - hypothetically speaking - a clearing up of things on this side of the pearly gates.

DustinsDad
True. I would think it would probably come forth as a clarification - either that he was not ever really excommunicated for such and such technical reason, or that the Church recognized today that his actions were not of a nature that merited excommunication or something. Gets very political because B-XVI won’t want to be seen as saying that JPII was wrong. But the canon lawyers could certainly write somethign for him.

On balance - I don’t expect it.

I have no great love for or animosity against SSPX. My only beef is not that they want to restore the old liturgy, but the claims (by some) that the new liturgy is Masonic, or that the College of Cardinals and Synod of Bishops and so forth are knowingly acting against the better interests of the Church. Its one thing to say you are wrong, quite another to say you are evil. To say that the new catechism and liturgy is the result of a secret pact with non-believers to undermine the Church is a claim of evil intent, to me.
 
Stmaria,

I understand your thoughts about Archbishop Lefebvre, or at least I think I do. You think that he has done a great thing for the Church insofar as that the Tridentine Mass was wrongly witheld from the faithful and that he, acting according to his conscience, not only did what he could to return it but ultimately played a part in bringing it back to the faithful - that is to say, his actions in some way led to the Motu Proprio of Benedict XVI. Because of this, you want very badly to see him in a very good light, but far more important than how you see him, you want for the reality of the matter to be that he acted properly, did what was right, and will one day be lifted up for veneration by the faithful as one of the saints on the Roman Calendar. These are very wonderful sentiments to have for a person, especially for one who you feel has done great things. 🙂

Unfortunately, I think that your sentiments may be clouding your ability to judge the matter objectively. Whether or not the ultimate goal that Archbishop Lefebvre sought to reach was meritorious, the means by which he worked to accomplish it were not, but were in fact sinful, and more than likely gravely sinful. He consecrated four bishops without the approval of the Holy See, which is in itself a grave sin on many accounts, perhaps the most significant being that he knowingly took upon himself an authority rightly belonging to the Bishop of Rome, meaning that not only did he disobey the Supreme Pontiff, but he also, in a very real sense, declared - through his actions, not his words - that either the Roman Pontiff had no authority in this case, or that his authority surpassed that of the Pontiff. And so the sin was one not only of disobedience, but perhaps even implicitly a sin against faith in the dogma of papal primacy. Remember that it is our actions by which we declare our faith, and not only our words, so what the Archibishop professed with his mouth and by the pen matters less than what he professed by his actions.

The citations from canon law that you brought up don’t really have anything to do with the matter in this case for two reasons. The most important is that those canons pertain to the handing out of penalties. That is, those are the laws by which the Church is to act when it places upon someone an ecclesiastical penalty. For example, if I were to commit an excomunicable act out of fear, then the Church would not lawfully be able to excommunicate me. It is the Church’s judgment, however, to see whether or not this applies. It may be that after investigation it was determined that I did not in fact act out of grave fear, and so the Church would be required to refrain from imposing a penalty on me. However, if they did impose a penalty, I would still be bound under that penalty even if they had judged wrongly. In that case I would be able to appeal to a higher court of canon law. The same goes for canon 1324.

Essentially, these canons list matters to be considered by those judges who would impose penalties. They do not, however, have anything to do with penalties which are imposed. Even a penalty imposed unjustly on a person must be respected until such time as it is lifted. It is much the same way as with civil law. I might be convicted of a crime unjustly, but I still find myself in prison until such time as the injustice is corrected.

And this really gets to the main part of the issue. When we look at the lives of the saints, we see countless examples of unjust excommunications, restrictions, and all manner of other penalties. The saints did not disregard these or disobey their superiors. Rather, they humbly submitted and worked for justice through prayer and obedience. They held obedience as the highest of virtues. Saints who saw the Church in need of reform, or some great injustice being imposed on the faithful by the Church acted also through prayer and obedience. They did not go ahead and do what they felt was right anyways in opposition to the Church.

This is why I think it highly unlikely that Archbishop Lefebvre will ever be canonized. Even if he is in now sitting in a high place at the Heavenly Banquet, the utter lack of obedience with which he did live and the other errors in his judgment insofar as how he handled the situation here on earth makes him a rather terrible example for the faithful to venerate. In short, he did everything that the saints teach us not to do.
 
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