Archbishop Muller: “These are not criticisms, they are provocations.”

[Cristiano]

I think the problem with this interpretation, and what trads would make of it, is that matter is never actually existent unless it is substance. So why create a distinction that doesn’t really exist? Unless the Archbishop is talking about prime matter which is also something that is only potential and never is, except that it is actualized by forms.

Also, Jesus is materially present w/bones, blood, flesh, etc. in the host. So again, why contrast his material presence with his substantial presence when the two are inseparable? Unless of course, I really am quite wrong.

Do you want to be more confused? Just read “Misterium Fidei” by Paul VI where it is stated:

“sub quibus totus et integer Christus adest in sua physica «realitate» etiam corporaliter praesens”

If you read the whole encyclical you will have a better appreciation of how things can be understood or misunderstood.

 

[Cristiano]

The mass does not use Thomistic language at all. The language of the mass is purely scriptural. The language of the Creed comes from the Councils of Nicea and Chalcedon. Long before Thomas came on the scene, we had the Creed as it is right now as well as the scriptural prayers.

Thomas is only used in theology, not everything he wrote and not by everyone. This has always been the case for more than 800 years. Why change it now?

What gives anyone the right to tell an order as old as the Benedictines, Carmelites, Augustinians, Cistercians or Carthusians that they have to use Thomas as their primary source? We’re talking about one thousand or more years of consecrated life here, that has produced some of the best theologians in the world, including Thomas, since the Dominicans follow Augustine.

Then you have a younger order like the Franciscans that has more doctors than any other order in the Church, including the Dominicans. What gives anyone the right to tell this order to drop their doctors and pick up Thomas, when they have always combined while deferring to their own doctors in those areas where their doctors are stronger than Thomas. At other times, they have deferred to their founder who commanded things that Thomas contradicted, but which the Church sanctioned and continues to sanction, such as the Immaculate Conception, CITH, equality between the ordained and the non-ordained religious, and being over doing.

You’re talking about turning the entire religious life of the Church upside down. That’s the last thing we need right now. We need to go back to the Middle Ages where we began or further back, not to the 1950s. What we had in the 1950s only worked for the laity. It did not work for us. It decimated us. More than half of those men who entered after 1950 left, were dismissed or remained and made life impossible for the rest of the religious community.

It’s easy for the man in the pew to want to go back to 1950. He does not have to live with a priest, brother or sister from that era. Not only were they out of compliance with the wishes and vision of their founders, but they were very difficult people for whom the most important thing in the world was their parish or their school instead of their way of life. As a result of some of this insanity, the counter reaction was to go to the opposite extreme and add insanity to the insanity.

Let us do this our way. We will go back to the origins of our specific orders and we will study what our religious ancestors studied and taught us, be it Thomas, Augustine, Bernard, Robert, Alphonse, Bruno et al.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

I think that the Congregatio de Auxiliis was just a Franciscan invention to get the Jesuit and Dominican theologians to quarrel with each other and to keep them away from the order

 

[JReducation]

I think that the Congregatio de Auxiliis was just a Franciscan invention to get the Jesuit and Dominican theologians to quarrel with each other and to keep them away from the order

Trust me, the Jesuits and Dominicans didn’t need much prodding to fight. They were so intense that the pope threatened to excommunicate everyone in both orders, if they didn’t stop calling each other heretics and throwing anathemas at each other.

We owe one thing to the Jesuit - Dominican debates. The papacy had to concede that two sides could be saying very different things about the same subject and both could be right. No one ever thought of this before, not even Thomas.

The other point that we owe to them is that it was at this time that the papacy decided, once and for all, that it would never interfere in the affairs of the major orders of men: Benedictines, Carthusians, Cistercians, Servites, Trinitarians, Augustinians, Carmelites, Franciscans, Dominicans and Jesuits. The members of these orders are all exempt religious with whom no one can interfere, not even Rome. Only the major superior can interfere with the individual members.

The papacy did this to avoid having to take sides in their quarrels over theological points and to avoid having to take sides in the conflicts between the religious and the laity. This way, the papacy always had an out when the King or the people complained. The Vatican simply says, “They’re exempt religious. Leave them alone and move on.”

Had it not been for the mud slinging contests between Jesuits and Dominicans, we would not have the Right of Exemption.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Dee_S]

I think that the Congregatio de Auxiliis was just a Franciscan invention to get the Jesuit and Dominican theologians to quarrel with each other and to keep them away from the order

this so reminded me of one of my favorite jokes…:bounce:

**A Franciscan and Jesuit were debating which order was the greatest. So, they decided to ask for a sign from God. This is what they received falling down from heaven:

My sons,

Please stop bickering about such trivial matters,

Sincerely,
God, O.P. http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQfFSuYizWFq3A5D8wv7ztcljiyAxk-qXHng-k-3_rb15HmA_cU&t=1**

opcorn:BTW the discussion is very interesting.

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