Archbishop Sample: A House Divided Cannot Stand

[CRV]

I have forgiven @Emeraldlady for the provokation, the insults, the ridicule and sarcasm - and prayed for us both.

Not once have I "bashed’ Pope Francis in real life nor on these boards.

But to be honest, the unwarranted that was directed at me simply because I have witnessed liturgical abuses and as a direct consequence prefer to attend only my parish, and from another Catholic no less, someone who also loves Christ, is enough to question my being part of this forum.

 

[PetraG]

I have forgiven @Emeraldlady for the provokation, the insults, the ridicule and sarcasm - and prayed for us both.

Not once have I "bashed’ Pope Francis in real life nor on these boards.

But to be honest, the unwarranted that was directed at me simply because I have witnessed liturgical abuses and as a direct consequence prefer to attend only my parish, and from another Catholic no less, someone who also loves Christ, is enough to question my being part of this forum.

The main thing is probably that this discussion never got to the point that any of the moderators questioned whether anyone here ought to belong on this forum.

We know that happens. We know there are people who lose the privilege to post here because they cannot keep it in bounds. People prone to go that far also need a good example of how to have a discussion.

 

[CRV]

I admit, that this recent experience directed at me and coming from someone who loves the OF, makes me wonder if those of us who love the EF are even wanted to participate here and share our thoughts and points of view, or if the preference is that we don’t and that we’d just ‘go away’.

I served as sacristan for the OF for a considerably much longer time (years) than I did as sacristan for the EF.

I’m not expecting an apology.

 

[PetraG]

I admit, that this recent experience directed at me and coming from someone who loves the OF, makes me wonder if those of us who love the EF are even wanted to participate here and share our thoughts and points of view, or if the preference is that we don’t and that we’d just ‘go away’.

I served as sacristan for the OF for a considerably much longer time (years) than I did as sacristan for the EF.

I’m not expecting an apology.

I don’t think I would conclude from one heated interchange with one individual that you’re not wanted here! It’s a big forum and we never know what kind of background someone has had. Yes, there are people in the Church who’d like to run some others out. We have over a billion brothers and sisters! There will be some squabbles!

When things simmer down, you may even become friends. Stranger things have happened to me here!

 

[Emeraldlady]

CRV:

I have forgiven @Emeraldlady for the provokation, the insults, the ridicule and sarcasm - and prayed for us both.

Not once have I "bashed’ Pope Francis in real life nor on these boards.

But to be honest, the unwarranted that was directed at me simply because I have witnessed liturgical abuses and as a direct consequence prefer to attend only my parish, and from another Catholic no less, someone who also loves Christ, is enough to question my being part of this forum.

The main thing is probably that this discussion never got to the point that any of the moderators questioned whether anyone here ought to belong on this forum.

We know that happens. We know there are people who lose the privilege to post here because they cannot keep it in bounds. People prone to go that far also need a good example of how to have a discussion.

@PetraG and @CRV I’ve collated all the posts I’ve made in this thread. If you would care to go through them and identify which of them was not appropriate for this discussion, I would appreciate it.

#11
#13
#57
#59
#64
#69
#72
#79
#94
#106
#109
#115
#120
#124
#126
#128
#134
#137
#147

 

[Fauken]

@PetraG and @CRV I’ve collated all the posts I’ve made in this thread. If you would care to go through them and identify which of them was not appropriate for this discussion, I would appreciate it.

You missed this one:

Archbishop Sample: A House Divided Cannot Stand Traditional Catholicism

I can say for my part I really don’t have strong feelings about which form of the Mass is the Ordinary. I only seem like a ‘hater’ to you because all the same names participate daily in anti Pope Francisism. Criticising and discrediting his authority to teach and guide. That to me is the biggest Catholic problem today. Any new Catholics or young people reading these threads I would just like to say to you… you don’t have to police Pope Francis. He is a gift from God with the authority and …

 

[PetraG]

If you would care to go through them and identify which of them was not appropriate for this discussion, I would appreciate it.

How about we don’t, and say we did?

If somebody forgives you when you’re sure you didn’t do a thing wrong…well, they took offense, even if none was meant, but they’re not reckoning it against you. Is it a terrible thing to accept the olive leaf as well meant and just let the matter drop?

 

[Emeraldlady]

No I didn’t. It’s right there. #147

 

[Fauken]

Ah, sorry! Trying to number posts on my phone is hard.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

If you would care to go through them and identify which of them was not appropriate for this discussion, I would appreciate it.

How about we don’t, and say we did?

If somebody forgives you when you’re sure you didn’t do a thing wrong…well, they took offense, even if none was meant, but they’re not reckoning it against you. Is it a terrible thing to accept the olive leaf as well meant and just let the matter drop?

How is anything in the discussion going to change if a person can’t discuss valid points without drama all the time? I genuinely am not going to know what I did wrong if it isn’t pointed out to me.

 

[PetraG]

How is anything in the discussion going to change if a person can’t discuss valid points without drama all the time? I genuinely am not going to know what I did wrong if it isn’t pointed out to me.

I don’t know what to tell you, except to do as the Archbishop suggested, because of course it works no matter which form of the Mass one is most attached to:
“But we must also look deep into our own hearts and we must examine our own hearts and make sure that we are not also divisive in our own adherence and attachment to this Form of the Holy Mass and to sort of criticize or look down upon our brothers and sisters who maybe don’t appreciate this Form as much as we do or to say in some way that the Ordinary Form of the Mass is somehow not valid or is not quite right…we must not allow ourselves either to become judgmental and harsh and angry with our brothers and sisters who do not appreciate what we appreciate.”

No one can examine your heart except you. Probably, though, you can look at the responses you got, re-read what you wrote, and ask yourself how what you wrote could have been written to avoid that misunderstanding. After that, though, well–go forward and do the best you can. If you’re merciful, then even when you didn’t mean to give offense, God will be merciful, right?

THE royal feast was done; the King
Sought some new sport to banish care,
And to his jester cried: "Sir Fool,
Kneel now, and make for us a prayer!"

The jester doffed his cap and bells,
And stood the mocking court before;
They could not see the bitter smile
Behind the painted grin he wore.

He bowed his head, and bent his knee
Upon the monarch’s silken stool;
His pleading voice arose: "O Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!

"No pity, Lord, could change the heart
From red with wrong to white as wool;
The rod must heal the sin; but Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!

" 'Tis not by guilt the onward sweep
Of truth and right, O Lord, we stay;
'Tis by our follies that so long
We hold the earth from heaven away.

"These clumsy feet, still in the mire,
Go crushing blossoms without end;
These hard, well-meaning hands we thrust
Among the heart-strings of a friend.

"The ill-timed truth we might have kept-
Who knows how sharp it pierced and stung?
The word we had not sense to say-
Who knows how grandly it had rung?

"Our faults no tenderness should ask,
The chastening stripes must cleanse them all;
But for our blunders-oh, in shame
Before the eyes of heaven we fall.

"Earth bears no balsam for mistakes;
Men crown the knave, and scourge the tool
That did his will; but Thou, O Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!"

The room was hushed; in silence rose
The King, and sought his gardens cool,
And walked apart, and murmured low,
“Be merciful to me, a fool!”

Edward Rowland Sill

 

[Emeraldlady]

This is just blame shifting. It seems to happen so much in these discussions.

 

[stpurl]

But I never called you a hater.

And I don’t understand this. Why would you ‘seem like a hater’ to me because of "all the same names participate daily in anti Pope Francisism. Criticising and discrediting his authority to teach and guide. That to me is the biggest Catholic problem today.?

I wasn’t talking about Pope Francis, or criticizing him, I was talking about the EF. Why did you jump to Pope Francis?

 

[Emeraldlady]

But I never called you a hater.

And I don’t understand this. Why would you ‘seem like a hater’ to me because of "all the same names participate daily in anti Pope Francisism. Criticising and discrediting his authority to teach and guide. That to me is the biggest Catholic problem today.?

I wasn’t talking about Pope Francis, or criticizing him, I was talking about the EF. Why did you jump to Pope Francis?

I’m regarded as one of the EF haters. That is why I’m treated with hostility on this thread. I was explaining that I’m not actually against the EF and never have been although I defend against those who criticise the OF because that is insulting to me. But there is obviously a strong correlation between traditionalists and anti Pope Francis sentiment. All the same names appear in the discussions. It is an inter related phenomenon.

 

[stpurl]

Like me? I have always supported the EF but I have also supported Pope Francis rather consistently. So that correlation may not be as strong as you think!

And I’ve seen plenty of others who like the EF and who, when a sock puppet comes on usually with some uber ‘traditional’ name and bleats out the worst cliches (and was probably invented by somebody just to give the EF a bad name) or criticizes Pope Francis who blasts their ‘ally’ for insulting wrong behavior. But that doesn’t seem to get as much notice because everybody is still going off on the “See, I TOLD you these people were mean and nasty” from the hit-and-run or ‘limited poster’ stirring the pot.

The other thing is that no matter what a person says regarding a choice, SOMEBODY is going to be ‘offended’.

If I came on and said, “I really like vanilla” you can bet your booties that some troll would start with, “Oh, and I suppose you hate chocolate”. “No I just like vanilla better”. “Oh well I suppose if you’re just one of those dull people who can’t understand the nuance and richness of chocolate”, “No, I like chocolate but I like vanilla better”, “You are so hateful and disrespectful of chocolate! Don’t you realize that my MOTHER loved chocolate? How can you be so hateful to some poor old lady. you love vanilla, that’s why. So elitist. So hoity-toity.”

You see? You might laugh at the above, but the thing is that if you love the OF and somebody refers to the music as “kind of stuck in the 70s and syrupy” (you may disagree, I disagree, but it is a personal opinion of a friend of mine, and if asked her opinion she will honestly give it), then you will get het up and call that ‘disrespectful’ where the person who gave the opinion (and we are all entitled to our opinions, even wrong ones) was not trying to be ‘disrespectful’ but was simply giving “I prefer vanilla to chocolate”. Some people find CHOCOLATE syrupy for example!

I usually dismiss remarks about the EF that come off as disrespectful to me personally especially if the person has never truly experienced the EF, unless they reflect not so much on the EF but on the persons. The remarks about ‘vain veiling women" or “mumbo jumbo Latin”, “Can’t understand”, "don’t participate’, “pray, pay, and obey”, are not directed at the liturgy but against PEOPLE and their faith practices. A remark about music is just a personal thing, although the more one studies sacred music the better one is able to discern, but remarks about the person’s supposed ‘intent’, those are truly hateful.

 

[CatholicELATeacher]

The closest parish to me got a new pastor this year. He sings the Mass, and is having the prayers sung in English to the Latin chant melodies, in preparation for Lent when they’ll be sung in Latin He chided in one of his early homily about the abuses he’s seen with receiving in the hand, and I watched him chase after someone once to see if they’d walked away without consuming the host. He led a procession on Sunday, first I’ve seen there. He’s zealous and he’s tough minded, which he’ll need to be to stand up against the parish “progressives.”

 

[PetraG]

"… I think I warned you before that if your patient can’t be kept out of the Church, he ought at least to be violently attached to some party within it. I don’t mean on really doctrinal issues; about those, the more lukewarm he is the better. And it isn’t the doctrines on which we chiefly depend for producing malice. The real fun is working up hatred between those who say “mass” and those who say “holy communion” when neither party could possibly state the difference between, say, Hooker’s doctrine and Thomas Aquinas’, in any form which would hold water for five minutes. And all the purely indifferent things—candles and clothes and what not—are an admirable ground for our activities. We have quite removed from men’s minds what that pestilent fellow Paul used to teach about food and other unessentials—namely, that the human without scruples should always give in to the human with scruples. You would think they could not fail to see the application. You would expect to find the “low” churchman genuflecting and crossing himself lest the weak conscience of his “high” brother should be moved to irreverence, and the “high” one refraining from these exercises lest he should betray his “low” brother into idolatry. And so it would have been but for our ceaseless labour. Without that the variety of usage within the Church of England might have become a positive hotbed of charity and humility,

Your affectionate uncle
SCREWTAPE"

C.S. Lewis, Letter XVI, The Screwtape Letters

Archbishop Sample is only asking his direct listeners to help to make the variety of usage within the Holy Roman Catholic Church a postive hotbed of charity and humily. The grace is right there, if we avail ourselves of it. When it gets difficult, ask for help. Help will surely come, no matter how hard-pressed we are.

 

[PetraG]

This is just blame shifting. It seems to happen so much in these discussions.

No, it is responsibility-shifting. There is a big difference. He is asking those who have an ear to hear to take up the load of healing and preventing divisions without looking to their right or to their left to see if the other side is doing their share or not.

And hey, if we think our “side” is preferable because we have a heavier share of grace, surely we were given that extra grace for a reason? It is not for our consolation only! It is strength to do the work, even a disproportionate share of the work. Yet who here would not prefer the hardships of being a saint over the seeming “ease” of refusing it? No, we only refuse when we are blinded by the tempter. This division is not what any of us wants. Let’s trust that God can improve things, if we cooperate.

We can’t help what anyone else does. No one is guaranteeing that we will get a mild response if we give a mild answer. No, the only request is to be as patient, as kind, as joyful and as good a witness for the graces we have recieved as we can, regardless of how anyone else reacts or responds or none of the above. None of this is about taking the blame for what anyone else does. It is about trying as much as possible to please Our Lord in how we respond to the environments we find ourselves in. That always means returning charity for charity, charity for enmity, charity even for being ignored or misunderstood.

I’m regarded as one of the EF haters. That is why I’m treated with hostility on this thread. I was explaining that I’m not actually against the EF and never have been although I defend against those who criticise the OF because that is insulting to me. But there is obviously a strong correlation between traditionalists and anti Pope Francis sentiment. All the same names appear in the discussions. It is an inter related phenomenon.

Yes, you’re right, in that I have also found that bringing up criticisms that are aimed in the direction of things I actually prize is often taken as hatred for that thing. (I don’t mean on CA, but just in discussions of anything that has these polarized “sides,” generally, which is an awful lot of topics, including whether or not there ought to be a designated hitter allowed in Major League Baseball.) There is a lot of polarization now, though, let’s recognize that. People do assume that anyone who criticizes anything or anybody having to do with what they love is an enemy. Well, there are a lot of people who can’t content themselves with criticism; they do want to eliminate everything that isn’t what they like. That isn’t rare. We have to be very careful, then, because we know all the nerve endings are raw these days, even our own. Every dog has his tail under the rocker.

 

[CradleRC58]

The division is real, and sadly it is being perpetuated by those who say they are keeping “Tradition” alive.

And here we see only two replies into the thread pointing to those whose love of the EF are where the roots of division lie.

 

[Randolph]

The division is real, and sadly it is being perpetuated by those who say they are keeping “Tradition” alive.

Ironically, it is precisely in sacred “Tradition”—that is so fundamental to the Catholic Church. Per Second Vatican Council’s document on divine revelation, Dei Verbum the relationship between Tradition and Scripture is explained:

“Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

“Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence.”