Archbshp Burke in Detroit - Mass and Talks for Marian Catechists

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asquared:
just finished giving a retreat (day of recollection really) for our catechists based on the Marian Catechist Manual, this is the third or fourth time we have used Fr. Hardon’s material as the basis of our spirituality retreats. 3 hours talking and meditating on 2 pages of the book that describe the formation and characteristics of a Marian catechists, with lectio divina (in the group) with some of the scriptures he cites. very powerful. Allthough I don’t call it the Marian Catechist Program (because it is not approved in our diocese) I use his materials as the basis for all catechist formation we do in the parish, with great results. I am homesick for Assumption Grotto.
That is wonderful.

You say you were homesick for Grotto - you were here? I see a lot of former Grotto goers who moved out of state or too far away who yearn for what she offers.

I pray that Holy Mother Church will give us priests who themselves hunger for this so they can give it to us the way Fr. Perrone does. I know there are some solidly orthodox and traditional young men in the pipeline and I see this as very hopeful. It is only a beginning, and in time these fine young men will inspire others to follow the same holy path where Catholicism can be lived out in all its simplicty, fully loyal to the Magisterium, and reserved and reverent in its liturgy.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
These pictures show more than just a Mass. It is a Mass where God is at the center and it begs for unconditional worship, and unconditional Catholicism.
Statements like this don’t help anything. You do realize that don’t you?

It’s quite a heavy opinion to decree that a mass celebrated with the priest facing the people is somehow not centered on God.

In fact, I’ve been present at masses both ad orientum and versus populum that are not centered on God.

While I appreciate that worshipping in this way is helpful for you to fully enter into the mystery of the Eucharist. I wholeheartedly disagree that the key to promoting reverence to the Eucharist is to take it further away from the people who receive the Eucharist.

It’s exhausting to see people claim “orthodoxy” and “authenticism” when most of the time that means “White Suburbia”.

Both rites are allowed and permitted. Both are beautiful. Both are Catholic. Both are unconditional in their worship.

Stop trying to bring division to a church that doesn’t need any more.
 
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frommi:
It’s exhausting to see people claim “orthodoxy” and “authenticism” when most of the time that means “White Suburbia”.
Uhh Frommi,

Assumption Grotto is an inner city Detroit parish, hardly what I would call either ‘White’ or ‘Suburbia’.
 
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Brendan:
Uhh Frommi,

Assumption Grotto is an inner city Detroit parish, hardly what I would call either ‘White’ or ‘Suburbia’.
I’m aware of the location, and probably chose my analogy poorly.

Let me try it this way…“Orthodox” equals “Middle Ages Western European”
 
FOMMI:

Poor opinions, poor analogies do not help the situation. You DO realize this don’t you? As you explained earlier you have a real problem with “perronite” liturgical celebrations.
 
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frommi:
Statements like this don’t help anything. You do realize that don’t you?

It’s quite a heavy opinion to decree that a mass celebrated with the priest facing the people is somehow not centered on God.

In fact, I’ve been present at masses both ad orientum and versus populum that are not centered on God.

While I appreciate that worshipping in this way is helpful for you to fully enter into the mystery of the Eucharist. I wholeheartedly disagree that the key to promoting reverence to the Eucharist is to take it further away from the people who receive the Eucharist.

It’s exhausting to see people claim “orthodoxy” and “authenticism” when most of the time that means “White Suburbia”.

Both rites are allowed and permitted. Both are beautiful. Both are Catholic. Both are unconditional in their worship.

Stop trying to bring division to a church that doesn’t need any more.
I’m sorry you felt my comment was an attack on what is a valid posture, versus populum. It was not an attack on this posture or people who have a preference for a mass celebrated this way. It’s actually very disheartening that a fellow Catholic would make such a charge against another for simply sharing a personal testimonial about how I feel in a traditional Novus Ordo Mass.

My comment was aimed at two things:
  1. I found out how distracting versus populum was for me personally after experiencing a Mass in which the priest did not face me for the first time in my life on May 15, 2005 at Assumption Grotto when I visited. It took the priest out of the center and placed God at the center for me. Because I had this experience does not mean everyone would experience it that way. I have since assisted at Novus Ordo Masses that were celebrate versus populum. One was at a former parish where the priest looked up all around the congregation during the words of consecration. For whatever reason, I found this distracting and that is simply my personal testimony. The other time was by my own pastor Fr. Eduard Perrone, who did so at a conference. Afterwards, I told him that after seeing the same priest do the Mass reverently both ways, and in both cases, looking down at the Host or Chalice while saying the words of consecration. I told him I still prefer the ad orientem posture. My preference for this posture is valid, not something disallowed by Vatican 2. Therefore, I find more division being created by those who get upset at people who have a preference for this and look for reasons to make charges of divisiveness.
  2. I have found contemporary masses in my area very community oriented (and I have been in 7-8 parishes over a 20 year period), where hand holding ruled, lots of physical contact, and much focus on neighbor during the mass. This was the norm for me for all of my life and I was born in 1962. It was all I knew for 43 years and so nothing seemed “off” to me. Within days of experiencing a traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo, I realized I had not put God at the center of my Mass, but was focused on everyone and everything around me. That was in large part, my own fault for not working at getting focused.
Continued next post…
 
But I pondered, how did this traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo facilitate my coming to this conclusion for myself.

A) Silence in Church was outright shocking to me and a contrast to the culture of all of my other contemporary N.O. parishes where conversations can be heard before, during (especially through the sign of peace, which in my parishes goes on a little too long and becomes an “occasion for conversation”), and after Mass. I now prefer silence before, during and after and find a far deeper and life-altering spirituality evolving just due to my ability to focus on God and not all that is going on around me at Mass.

B) I recognized the priest’s posture had much to do with it. He sat off to the side, not facing me. During the Eucharistic Prayer he was faced the other way and not looking around as if to offer something for us to eat. While some may find this helps them to stay alert, I discovered that it drove me to focus on the priest, and not the Body of Christ (a discernment that only one can make for themselves and one that I did find in myself upon reflection). I can focus so deeply when the priest hunches over and says the words into the Chalice for example. I can’t explain why this is, it just is.

C) There is no flambuoyance on the part of the celebrant in a traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo. Cardinal Arinze speaks of showmanship that some priests get involved with during the Mass and how it can be distracting when God should be at the center. So, the showmanship issue was not just my experience with many of the priests, but Cardinal Arinze has called it out. This says there must be enough of it going on for him to notice. Furthermore, I don’t blame priests for it as it is something I believe they are taught in the seminary by some “liturigical experts” of the day.

D) Devoutness unfound in any parish I previously went to made me reflect very quickly how I had put everything but God at the center of my life. I recognized and told the Lord I had lost my sense of reverence as I watched a young girl, all of nine years old, genuflect to the floor with such visible devotion, it put me to shame. I cannot know what was in her heart and whether it was true or not, but God used her as an instrument to drive home the point to me that I simply never had any reverence. People arrive at Grotto often 30+ minutes prior to Mass and most people are there with 15 minutes to go. Unlike my previous parshes where I, along with half the parish ran out the door tripping over everyone before the priest left, Grotto-goers have a habit of not only staying in place until celebrant is out of sight, but a good 25-30% remain kneeling or in the Church somewhere relfecting quietly or doing devotions for another 15-20 minutes.

E) Homilies and sermons with enough chutzpah to blow me right out of the pew - for weeks and weeks after I arrived. For the first time in my life I was not getting fluff but the real deal. Those words, the fullness of the faith taught from the pulpit, addressing everything from morality to what watch on TV, to ABC and NFP, abortion, you name it. Nothing was exempt and I didn’t have to wait for lent to get the fullness of my religion. Never in my life have I had any priest from the pulpit delve into self-mortification and the benefits with regards to training the will. I had never been challenged to train my will so I just let my will have its way much fo the time on matters small and big. Homilies at Grotto were shocking, but refreshing and making me think deep. I never once felt threatened or felt fear from them, but rather a need to use the Sacrament of Penance more regular to work on matters mortal and venial now that I was beginning to understand them more. I believe most people who attend traditionally celebrated Novus Ordos would say the homilies are content rich and don’t avoid any topic, especially the most controversial of the day.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of things that caused me to see that God should always be at the center of the Mass and that worship should be unconditional. NO OTHER parish that celebrates contemorary style masses, with contemporary music, and all the physical contact ever helped me to see this.

I can’t help but to provide my own testimonial about how the traditionally celebrated liturgy changed my views on the Mass and ultimately my entire life.

You may want to re-evaluate where the division is being created. Traditional Novus Ordo’s are rarely found these days and they are as valid, and as licit, as a contemporary Novus Ordo. Both traditional and contemporary Novus Ordo Masses can be orthodox, or true, but there are certain things that simply facilitate my ability to focus my attention on God and put him at the center of my Mass instead of on myself and the people around me.

Peace 🙂
 
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frommi:
I’m aware of the location, and probably chose my analogy poorly.

Let me try it this way…“Orthodox” equals “Middle Ages Western European”
Middle Ages??

No, I think the Early Church was quite Orthodox.

I think we can all agree that Eastern Europeans like the Byzantines are quite orthodox. Or Asians like the Chaldeans

Heck even Renaissance Catholics like those at Trent were orthodox.

No, I don’t think anyone here restricts orthodoxy to either the Middle Ages or Western Europe, or even implied it.

If so, could you please cut and paste the quote?
 
The use of the word “White” raises a red flag and a agenda to me…

james
 
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Jakub:
The use of the word “White” raises a red flag and a agenda to me…

james
I apologize if I sound agenda driven. I’m not trying to be.

It was a poor choice of words and example. Mea Culpa.

The point I was trying to make (poorly), was that it becomes tiresome to me when a mass at a parish like Assumption Grotto is somehow seen as holding a “higher place” on the liturgical totem pole.

I truly believe you either love or you don’t. There is no middle ground. You go to mass and believe that it’s the body and blood of Christ poured out, or you don’t. The postures should not have any affect on that key point.

Now, can music, preaching, posture, have a profound effect on our ability to realize that mystery? Absolutely. And sometimes it’s hard to pray at a “bad” mass. I know that.

The point is, when we receive the body of Christ, whether at a communion rail, or in our own hands before surgery, it is the same body of Christ.
 
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frommi:
I
I truly believe you either love or you don’t. There is no middle ground. You go to mass and believe that it’s the body and blood of Christ poured out, or you don’t. The postures should not have any affect on that key point.
.
So frommi, if someone ‘mooned’ the altar during the Elevation, I would be your claim that the particular posture has no effect on their love for the Eucharist.

Or could it be that some postures are more indicitive of Love than others?
 
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frommi:
I apologize if I sound agenda driven. I’m not trying to be.

It was a poor choice of words and example. Mea Culpa.

The point I was trying to make (poorly), was that it becomes tiresome to me when a mass at a parish like Assumption Grotto is somehow seen as holding a “higher place” on the liturgical totem pole.

I truly believe you either love or you don’t. There is no middle ground. You go to mass and believe that it’s the body and blood of Christ poured out, or you don’t. The postures should not have any affect on that key point.

Now, can music, preaching, posture, have a profound effect on our ability to realize that mystery? Absolutely. And sometimes it’s hard to pray at a “bad” mass. I know that.

The point is, when we receive the body of Christ, whether at a communion rail, or in our own hands before surgery, it is the same body of Christ.
I don’t think it is a matter of me sharing my enthusiasm for the Mass celebrated at my parish that is the problem. I think the problem may lie with a very, very small percentage of people on this forum who find fault with anyone sharing enthusiasm for a traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo.

What is sad is that the contemporary N.O. are a dime a dozen and on most street corners; a traditional N.O. is hard to come by, yet that which is so vehemently attacked is anything traditional as if it is some kind of threat. I post pictures to share them with others and to provide a testimony as to how it affects me.

What is so threatening about talking about how postures and the like helped me?

Help me to understand this, because I would really like to.
 
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frommi:
I apologize if I sound agenda driven. I’m not trying to be.

It was a poor choice of words and example. Mea Culpa.

The point I was trying to make (poorly), was that it becomes tiresome to me when a mass at a parish like Assumption Grotto is somehow seen as holding a “higher place” on the liturgical totem pole.

Perhaps the way you are looking at a more beautifully presented Mass, spiritual involvement in depth by those attending, reverence postured, causes some envy and resentment that what you are most familiar with doesn’t inspire. This would produce a sense of antagonism and a desire to have the Mass celebrated at Assumption Grotto less valuable and even nonexistent. If an inkling of envy or pride worms its way into conscious thought we must instantly defeat it with a sincere appeal to our Guardian Angel to turn our thought to love of God.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
What is so threatening about talking about how postures and the like helped me?

Help me to understand this, because I would really like to.
Nothing is threatening so long as it doesn’t dismiss the beauty and splendor folks find in other valid forms of celebrating the sacraments.

Your statement that I quoted earlier seemed to be leaning towards saying that your way was the “better way”. That’s all.

I don’t really have a problem with TLM, or NO ad orientum. I wouldn’t seek out a mass celebrated this way however.

I do think that proper cathecesis is very necessary as to “why are we doing this this way”.
 
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grotto:
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frommi:
I apologize if I sound agenda driven. I’m not trying to be.

It was a poor choice of words and example. Mea Culpa.

The point I was trying to make (poorly), was that it becomes tiresome to me when a mass at a parish like Assumption Grotto is somehow seen as holding a “higher place” on the liturgical totem pole.

Perhaps the way you are looking at a more beautifully presented Mass, spiritual involvement in depth by those attending, reverence postured, causes some envy and resentment that what you are most familiar with doesn’t inspire. This would produce a sense of antagonism and a desire to have the Mass celebrated at Assumption Grotto less valuable and even nonexistent. If an inkling of envy or pride worms its way into conscious thought we must instantly defeat it with a sincere appeal to our Guardian Angel to turn our thought to love of God.
But that’s the problem, what I am familiar with DOES inspire me, and I can guarantee it inspires a large number of the faithful. Look at the numbers of youth who will sit on a hill in Germany to see the Pope celebrate the Eucharist. Of course they are inspired.

I don’t think we need a “liturgical top ten”, where this type of mass is better than or worse than this type of mass.
 
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frommi:
Nothing is threatening so long as it doesn’t dismiss the beauty and splendor folks find in other valid forms of celebrating the sacraments.

Your statement that I quoted earlier seemed to be leaning towards saying that your way was the “better way”. That’s all.

I don’t really have a problem with TLM, or NO ad orientum. I wouldn’t seek out a mass celebrated this way however.

I do think that proper cathecesis is very necessary as to “why are we doing this this way”.
So, everytime someone wants to share their joy and enthusiasm for a traditionally celebrated Mass they must follow that with a qualifier that acknowledges the equality of the contemporary N.O.?

Silly me, I should just put it in my signature. Then again, for all those who talk enthusiastically about the liturgy they experience should follow with an identical qualifier about traditionally celebrated Novus Ordos.

People here on these forums have admired the Mass coming out of EWTN and have expressed their enthusiasm and desire to see such Masses available in their area. Does that mean they are all making it superior? I see it as more of a preferential issue and they have a right to express it. The “EWTN-style Holy Mass” is a traditionally celebrated Mass and for whatever reason some are uplifted by this including me. It doesn’t have to be ad orientem. Some are uplifted by Latin and by very reserved (not flambuoyant) postures on the part of priests. It is a mixture of everything from postures, silence, reverential gestures, AND chant/sacred music versus “Gather” type music. In many parishes in my area, that is all you can find are Masses with this kind of music. I’m 43 and all my life yearned for sacred polyphony quietly in my heart. How unfortunate that it took 43 years for me to finally experience it at Assumption Grotto.

The qualifiers, imho, are not needed. Everyone has the right to share their enthusiasm for a style and form of Mass they engage in. Those not sharing the enthusiasm ought to just pass up the thread, rather than jumping in and making charges that we are trying to be divisive. This is just very sad.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
So, everytime someone wants to share their joy and enthusiasm for a traditionally celebrated Mass they must follow that with a qualifier that acknowledges the equality of the contemporary N.O.?
Not at all…I think my original point was that it ‘felt’ as though you were making an assertion that the ad orientum novos ordo celebrated at the grotto was SUPERIOR.

The exact statement I took issue with was:

“These pictures show more than just a Mass. It is a Mass where God is at the center and it begs for unconditional worship, and unconditional Catholicism.”

And my only assertion was that I can’t think of a mass where that isn’t the case.

I do have a real issue with the idea of an “EWTN” style mass. I fear that cable network may have done more to create a parallel catholic universe than it should have. A network with no episcopal authority that has been around long enough to be used as an adjective (positive for some and negative for others). That’s problematic.

That’s all
 
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frommi:
I do have a real issue with the idea of an “EWTN” style mass. I fear that cable network may have done more to create a parallel catholic universe than it should have. A network with no episcopal authority that has been around long enough to be used as an adjective (positive for some and negative for others). That’s problematic.

That’s all
Why is it problematic? What errors have they shown to Catholics?

When have they been unfaithful in anyway to the Church?
 
Okay - small point but this struck me as I looked at the pictures. Sorry, I like details…***what a gorgeous floor! * ** I am so tired of the ceramic tile sanctuary floors in newly built churches. The ones I have seen, no matter how hard they may have tried to pick an ‘elegant tile’, just look like something you’d have in your kitchen or bathroom. *Why can’t we invest in floors like that anymore!?
*
 
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frommi:
Not at all…I think my original point was that it ‘felt’ as though you were making an assertion that the ad orientum novos ordo celebrated at the grotto was SUPERIOR.

The exact statement I took issue with was:

“These pictures show more than just a Mass. It is a Mass where God is at the center and it begs for unconditional worship, and unconditional Catholicism.”

And my only assertion was that I can’t think of a mass where that isn’t the case.
Trust me, any photo I take with a consecrated Host or Chalice elevated would have God at the Center, provided it was a valid consecration, of which probably 99% are, whether traditional, TLM, or contemporary.

It is a Mass where FOR ME God is at the center, for the reasons I cited in posts 26 and 27, which seem to have been missed. No other Mass, prior to the traditional Novus Ordo I first experienced at Grotto has ever aided me in grasping that concept of God being at the Center of the Mass. I was like a lot of people around me, making goo-goo faces at the baby in front of me and not paying attention, but this Mass taught me something that carries into ALL Masses, be they contemporary, traditional or TLM.

I do regret if the comment could be taken the way you received it, but it was not meant that way.
I do have a real issue with the idea of an “EWTN” style mass. I fear that cable network may have done more to create a parallel catholic universe than it should have. A network with no episcopal authority that has been around long enough to be used as an adjective (positive for some and negative for others). That’s problematic.

That’s all
Now this attitude toward’s EWTN concerns me a great deal. It’s one thing for you to say that you don’t have a preference for such a traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo - which is as valid as your contemporary celebrated Novus Ordo. But you are talking about them creating a parallel Church? Heaven help us.

Do you have any idea how many people have converted to the Catholic faith as a result of this network?

Do you have any idea how many people have had their very poor catechesis “fixed” by programs on this network which taught the faith in its fullness?
 
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