Are 5 Children enough?

[KathyKaye]

In growing up it has always been my understanding that after having 5 children the Church agrees that parents can take measures to stop having children. Recently in our Bible Study this thought was challenged. I know many families that have had hysterectomies as a result of this belief. What is correct?

 

[Newbie2]

There is no number given to by the Roman Catholic Church as to the number of Children we are supposed to have.

All that is required is that we be open to having them, however many that may be.

 

[1ke]

In growing up it has always been my understanding that after having 5 children the Church agrees that parents can take measures to stop having children.

This is not true. I don’t know where you got such an idea.

Recently in our Bible Study this thought was challenged.

It’s good that someone challenged this, because it is false.

The Church does not teach that we are to have 5 children, or 10 children, or no children. It certainly does not have an arbitrary number like “5” upon which you can then “take measures” to stop having children.

Contraception and sterilization are mortal sins. They are never permissable.

What the Church does teach is that if one has a serious reason to space children, one may do so by periodic continence-- periodically abstaining from sexual intercourse with your spouse. This might be at any number of children and for any length of time-- a short time or indefinitely-- depending upon the circumstnaces.

I suggest you read the encyclical Humanae Vitae.

I know many families that have had hysterectomies as a result of this belief. What is correct?

Having a hysterectomy to prevent children is **always **immoral. Having a hysterectomy to remove a damaged uterus is moral-- the purpose is to treat the disease and restore the health of the woman, not to prevent children.

This is true whether you have no children, one child, five children, or fifteen of them.

The Church has no arbitrary number of children you must have and it has no number at which you can proclaim you are “finished” and contraception and sterilization are always gravely wrong.

 

[Rence]

In growing up it has always been my understanding that after having 5 children the Church agrees that parents can take measures to stop having children. Recently in our Bible Study this thought was challenged. I know many families that have had hysterectomies as a result of this belief. What is correct?

Are you sure that the families you know have had hysterectomies because of this belief or — rather, because after 5 children it was medically necessary? Not everyone can have many children. While I know women that make it look like a piece of cake (and I’m not exaggerating…I don’t know how they do it), I know that some that coudn’t do more than two or even one. Five is a lot for some women…

And no, like the others have said, hysterectomies are not allowed for the primary reason to avod future pregnancies.

 

[mcteague]

It seems that you are supposed to breed until you die in childbirth. People will lay flowers on your grave. They will say you made the supreme sacrifice and that you were a good Christian woman.
This is how it was for most woman for centuries. This is what some people here want to return to. Sorry you were born female. People here want you to believe that this is all you are good for. And that your life means nothing except as a perpetual breeding machine
Most people in Church just ignore extremist views like this. And just try to live good lives.
I suggest you do the same. It would be nice to see your grandchildren one day.

 

[Corki]

It seems that you are supposed to breed until you die in childbirth. People will lay flowers on your grave. They will say you made the supreme sacrifice and that you were a good Christian woman.
This is how it was for most woman for centuries. This is what some people here want to return to. Sorry you were born female. People here want you to believe that this is all you are good for. And that your life means nothing except as a perpetual breeding machine
Most people in Church just ignore extremist views like this. And just try to live good lives.
I suggest you do the same. It would be nice to see your grandchildren one day.

That’s complete bunk.

For centuries, child birth was very dangerous. Women often died while having their first or second child.

The Church calls all of us to responsible parenthood. NOWHERE in Church teaching will you find a directive to continue to “breed” if it is dangerous or that “all you are good for” is to have children.

Yes, everyone **should **ignore the view you espouse because it is completely against the teaching of the Church.

To the OP, there is no magic number of kids. At every stage of life, you may take measures to protect your health and fertility. The morality of those choices does not change due to how many kids you already have. For many families, five is just getting started. For others, it is more than they can reasonably support.

 

[puzzleannie]

In growing up it has always been my understanding that after having 5 children the Church agrees that parents can take measures to stop having children. Recently in our Bible Study this thought was challenged. I know many families that have had hysterectomies as a result of this belief. What is correct?

I have been Catholic for almost 70 years and never heard of anyone who had a hysterectmy under the mistaken idea that the Church teaches 5 children is enough.

Where can you have read or heard such a thing as a dogmatic definition of how many kids is “enough” or “too much?” It is inconceivable that you can find any legitimate Catholic source for such a wild idea. The Church makes no pronouncement other than the counsel to leave it to God’s will, and to allow for periodic abstinence (assisted by NFP and other modern methods of ovulation predictio) for couples who discern using the cardinal virtue of prudence that pregnancy should be delayed or deferred in their case.

 

[Rence]

It seems that you are supposed to breed until you die in childbirth. People will lay flowers on your grave. They will say you made the supreme sacrifice and that you were a good Christian woman.
This is how it was for most woman for centuries. This is what some people here want to return to. Sorry you were born female. People here want you to believe that this is all you are good for. And that your life means nothing except as a perpetual breeding machine
Most people in Church just ignore extremist views like this. And just try to live good lives.
I suggest you do the same. It would be nice to see your grandchildren one day.

I can understand what sounds like bitterness. Unfortunately a lot of people expect much more than the Church does, and they make a lot of noise, and speak with such assured certainty, that they make poor examples of Catholics. I know people who think as you posted above, but that’s not what the Church teaches or expects.

Women are not breeding machines, and the Church doesn’t teach that they are. Women are not expected to have a child a year, year after year, until their bodies break, and the Church doesn’t teach that’s how its supposed to be either. Certainly there are these cool women who not only can pop out kids every year, and make it look exactly that easy, but can manage all of them with what seems like ease too

The Church doesn’t require any certain number of children.

 

[puzzleannie]

It seems that you are supposed to breed until you die in childbirth…

this is not Catholic teaching so why even bring it up here? if you are honestly interested in that teaching research it here, if not, what is to be served by printing lies?

 

[smichhertz]

In growing up it has always been my understanding that after having 5 children the Church agrees that parents can take measures to stop having children. Recently in our Bible Study this thought was challenged. I know many families that have had hysterectomies as a result of this belief. What is correct?

Hi KathyKaye!

Welcome to CAF! Please feel free to post anytime you have a question. I have found CAF to be a wonderful resource to grow in understanding of the Catholic Church. The members here are friendly and helpful, and a wonderful source of knowledge about the faith.

On to your question: The above posters are correct, there is no set number. Each married couple must prayerfully and carefully discern if they should hold off on having more children. I would also highly recommend that a married couple seek counsel from a priest.

That’s not to say that a married couple can never stop having kids, spacing pregnancies is a normal part of any married couple’s life. It’s just that great care must be taken to ensure that there is no selfish motivation behind it, and that the couple is truly acting out of love for their family and God.

Hope that helps!

 

[Alix1912]

Are you sure that the families you know have had hysterectomies because of this belief or — rather, because after 5 children it was medically necessary? Not everyone can have many children. While I know women that make it look like a piece of cake (and I’m not exaggerating…I don’t know how they do it), I know that some that coudn’t do more than two or even one. Five is a lot for some women…

And no, like the others have said, hysterectomies are not allowed for the primary reason to avod future pregnancies.

I would be surprised if anyone has a hysterectomy solely for the reason of preventing more children. It is a mjor surgery that forever alters your body. Many of the women in my family have had one (for medical reasons), and would tell you they would never go through the procedure if it weren’t medically nessecary because it not a simply procedure. People who are looking for procedure to prevent conception opt to tie their tubes generally. It is much less invasive and much safer. I cannot think of any OBGYN who would advise a hysterectomy for birth control purposes only, they would recommend tying the tubes instead.

Chances are the people you knew who had hysterectomies had them for a medical reason. Five pregnancies can be too much on many women’s uteruses. Not to mention 5 pregnancies spaced about 1.5 -3 years apart would also put most women in the age range where cancer or other problems of the reproductive system become more common. I would not assume that they simply hit the magic number of 5 kids and then went in for a hysterectomy.

That being said I believe the Catholic Churches stance is to have the number of children you discern (through prayer, based on fincancial, spiritual, physical and emotional considerations.) to be the correct size for your family, while still being open to life.

 

[Rence]

I would be surprised if anyone has a hysterectomy solely for the reason of preventing more children. It is a mjor surgery that forever alters your body. Many of the women in my family have had one (for medical reasons), and would tell you they would never go through the procedure if it weren’t medically nessecary because it not a simply procedure. People who are looking for procedure to prevent conception opt to tie their tubes generally. It is much less invasive and much safer. I cannot think of any OBGYN who would advise a hysterectomy for birth control purposes only, they would recommend tying the tubes instead.

Hey, I agree with you. I’m just going by other posters who have asked if it was permissible to have a hysterectomy after a certain amount of pregnancies, and who would be at risk to get pregnant. I again agree that the OBGYN would recommend sterilization, however for some reason, some people think that tubal ligation is forbidden but having a hyterectomy t prevent future pregnancies would be okay. Especially if the uterus was all beat up because of the many preganncies.

 

[Alix1912]

Hey, I agree with you. I’m just going by other posters who have asked if it was permissible to have a hysterectomy after a certain amount of pregnancies, and who would be at risk to get pregnant. I again agree that the OBGYN would recommend sterilization, however for some reason, some people think that tubal ligation is forbidden but having a hyterectomy t prevent future pregnancies would be okay. Especially if the uterus was all beat up because of the many preganncies.

If the uterus is “all beat up” from too many pregnancies it is actually considered diseased and at risk of lots of other types of complications that are not related to pregnancy. If an OBGYN is recommending it be removed because of this then it’s not being removed for the purpose of preventing pregnancies but because it is a risk fo other things as well.

 

[Bookcat]

Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI

1. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

1. What are immoral means of birth control?

2370-2372

Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.

1. Why are artificial insemination and artificial fertilization immoral?

2373-2377

They are immoral because they dissociate procreation from the act with which the spouses give themselves to each other and so introduce the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Furthermore, heterologous insemination and fertilization with the use of techniques that involve a person other than the married couple infringe upon the right of a child to be born of a father and mother known to him, bound to each other by marriage and having the exclusive right to become parents only through each another.

1. How should children be considered?

2378

A child is a gift of God, the supreme gift of marriage. There is no such thing as a right to have children (e.g. “a child at any cost”). But a child does have the right to be the fruit of the conjugal act of its parents as well as the right to be respected as a person from the moment of conception.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[Holly3278]

The Church does not say we have to have a specific number of children. The Church doesn’t even say we have to have any children, only that we have to be open to the possibility of a child.

 

[Rence]

If the uterus is “all beat up” from too many pregnancies it is actually considered diseased and at risk of lots of other types of complications that are not related to pregnancy. If an OBGYN is recommending it be removed because of this then it’s not being removed for the purpose of preventing pregnancies but because it is a risk fo other things as well.

I agree with you again, on what you posted above. Again, I was just going by other posters who have asked if it was permissible to have a hysterectomy after a certain amount of pregnancies, and who would be at risk to get pregnant. I was told that if the uterus was all beat up because of the many preganncies, it was not licit to have a hysterectomy for the sole purpose of preventing another pregnancy. Of course it would be licit to remove a uterus that was beat up enough to cause other problems not related to pregnancy.

 

[Seatuck]

In growing up it has always been my understanding that after having 5 children the Church agrees that parents can take measures to stop having children. Recently in our Bible Study this thought was challenged. I know many families that have had hysterectomies as a result of this belief. What is correct?

That is one of those silly anecdotal fables passed around by people in order to make their decisions easier. There is no magic formula for how many children are the right number in any marriage. That is a decision for the spouses and God to make together.
Hysterectomies are for treating medical situations not for contraception/sterilization. Sterilization is a mortal sin no matter how many children you have.

Read Humanae Vitae for one resource.

 

[christine0186]

My husband and I have six children. It is a tremendous blessing - not at all a burden that is going to “break” me or cause me to suffer an early death! How ridiculous to think such a thing! I feel completely liberated and happy; as well as honored that God has given me these children to raise for him. I would NEVER wish my life to be different, or wish I didn’t have so many. I am a much better person because of them. We have a very happy family life. By the way, we see no need to have recourse to contraception/sterilization and think it gravely immoral to do so. We are carefully discerning whether or not God wants us to bring another new life into the world in a couple years. I will miss when I am physically unable to do so! It is all joy. Every baby is such a joy - not just for us as parents, but for the siblings, too. At the end of last year, my husband asked all the kids what the best thing was that happened to them that year: One by one they replied the best thing was their brother was born (last April). So, we love the Catholic life, not for whatever kind of joy it might provide for us, but for the joy it provides to others. and we feel privileged to partake in such blessings.

Pax!
Christine

 

[TarkanAttila]

It seems that you are supposed to breed until you die in childbirth. People will lay flowers on your grave. They will say you made the supreme sacrifice and that you were a good Christian woman.
This is how it was for most woman for centuries. This is what some people here want to return to. Sorry you were born female. People here want you to believe that this is all you are good for. And that your life means nothing except as a perpetual breeding machine
Most people in Church just ignore extremist views like this. And just try to live good lives.
I suggest you do the same. It would be nice to see your grandchildren one day.

Thank you once again for not doing your research and adding to the humongous piles of inaccurate judgements people have made about the Catholic Church and its members. You a feminist or something?

Of course women are capable of more than bearing children! It requires a lot of intellect, strength, patience, faith, and fortitude to RAISE children!

Even after that, did you know the Catholic Church values consecrated virgins (like nuns and priests) above marriage? After all, you are giving everything, even the gift of giving life, to God Almighty, making a massive contribution to the Kingdom of God! Not that a child isn’t a big contribution, not that five or fifteen or a hundred aren’t.

But how wonderful would humanity be if it ended praying to and loving God as holy, consecrated virgins! If all men gave up sex for the glory of God, it may make Him a bit sad, but it would please Him immensely.

Ah, well. That’s not the plan, I guess. Life goes on, and women are able to work as wage slaves (like men), bear and raise children (as in our human nature), or consecrate themselves to God (in our spiritual nature).

 

[MikeNM]

As far as a strict interpretation of Church doctrine goes, no number of children justifies a resort to artificial means (condoms, birth control pills, hysterectomies, vasectomies, etc.) to prevent conception.

It seems to me that somewhere around that number, in our society, would certainly justify recourse to use of Natural Family Planning (which Humanae Vitae says is sometimes appropriate, without specifying when.)

On that issue, though, I suppose I agree with what then-Cardinal Ratzinger said in Salt of the Earth “that those are questions that ought to be discussed with one’s spiritual director, with one’s priest, because they can’t be projected into the abstract.”