Are 5 Children enough?

[Alix1912]

Thank you once again for not doing your research and adding to the humongous piles of inaccurate judgements people have made about the Catholic Church and its members. You a feminist or something?

Of course women are capable of more than bearing children! It requires a lot of intellect, strength, patience, faith, and fortitude to RAISE children!

Even after that, did you know the Catholic Church values consecrated virgins (like nuns and priests) above marriage? After all, you are giving everything, even the gift of giving life, to God Almighty, making a massive contribution to the Kingdom of God! Not that a child isn’t a big contribution, not that five or fifteen or a hundred aren’t.

But how wonderful would humanity be if it ended praying to and loving God as holy, consecrated virgins! If all men gave up sex for the glory of God, it may make Him a bit sad, but it would please Him immensely.

Ah, well. That’s not the plan, I guess. Life goes on, and women are able to work as wage slaves (like men), bear and raise children (as in our human nature), or consecrate themselves to God (in our spiritual nature).

I think everyone knows that this not the Church Doctrine, but the Breed until you can’t anymore is a mentality expressed by some Catholics. I think in an effort to defend large families (which I have no problem with) people also often come off as sanctamommies and that can come across the wrong way. You also have people who gossip and speculate on people with smaller familes and their method and reasons for keeping their family small. All that together can really come off in a manner that seems to make childbearing the only value to women. We know that it is not an offical church teaching, but many seem to think it is.

 

[SwizzleStick]

In growing up it has always been my understanding that after having 5 children the Church agrees that parents can take measures to stop having children. …

I have never in my life heard that from anyone and I am a lifelong Catholic. The Church does not specifiy how many children a couple should be open to having. The Church says only that we must be open to life and not do anything to sterilize the marital act.

…Recently in our Bible Study this thought was challenged. I know many families that have had hysterectomies as a result of this belief. What is correct?

Having a hysterectomy for the sole purpose of preventing further pregnancies is in direct oppostion to the teachings of the Church.

 

[TarkanAttila]

I think everyone knows that this not the Church Doctrine, but the Breed until you can’t anymore is a mentality expressed by some Catholics. I think in an effort to defend large families (which I have no problem with) people also often come off as sanctamommies and that can come across the wrong way. You also have people who gossip and speculate on people with smaller familes and their method and reasons for keeping their family small. All that together can really come off in a manner that seems to make childbearing the only value to women. We know that it is not an offical church teaching, but many seem to think it is.

You would be surprised. Some people are ignorant enough to think we actually WORSHIP statues, saints, and Mary!

But I kind of understand what you mean. And it’s not like the father can’t raise his kids. I was raised by my father while Mom brought home the bread. (Being she was a diabetic, she did not have her own children; we were adopted. Nothing at all wrong with that.)

 

[Spirithound]

In growing up it has always been my understanding that after having 5 children the Church agrees that parents can take measures to stop having children. Recently in our Bible Study this thought was challenged. I know many families that have had hysterectomies as a result of this belief. What is correct?

Now this is interesting. Where are all these 5-child families?

 

[gthompson]

I have 3 children. Actually wanted 4 but when my 3rd child was born I had complications. The Dr. told me after the fact that 98% of the women who had what I had have an emergency hysterecomy after delivering a stillborn baby or a baby with multiple, multiple handicaps. My baby was ok but the Dr. actually slept in a recliner next to my hospital bed the whole first night due to this complication. He told me 25 years ago he would never tell a Catholic woman not to have anymore children but he felt he must tell me not to have anymore due to the high risk of added complications. He had seen this problem one other time in 38 years of practice and the other woman and baby died. My husband had a vasectomy 3 months later. I know according to the Catholic teachings we have committed a grave sin but we felt we were doing this so our 3 children would have a Mother. I have been told I didn’t trust God by doing this but my husband and I felt we couldn’t take that risk. I don’t regret it. We are very active in our Church, attend Mass at least once a week if not more and feel ok about our decision. We know God is a forgiving God and that we are human and scared at times in our decisions.

 

[Alix1912]

I have 3 children. Actually wanted 4 but when my 3rd child was born I had complications. The Dr. told me after the fact that 98% of the women who had what I had have an emergency hysterecomy after delivering a stillborn baby or a baby with multiple, multiple handicaps. My baby was ok but the Dr. actually slept in a recliner next to my hospital bed the whole first night due to this complication. He told me 25 years ago he would never tell a Catholic woman not to have anymore children but he felt he must tell me not to have anymore due to the high risk of added complications. He had seen this problem one other time in 38 years of practice and the other woman and baby died. My husband had a vasectomy 3 months later. I know according to the Catholic teachings we have committed a grave sin but we felt we were doing this so our 3 children would have a Mother. I have been told I didn’t trust God by doing this but my husband and I felt we couldn’t take that risk. I don’t regret it. We are very active in our Church, attend Mass at least once a week if not more and feel ok about our decision. We know God is a forgiving God and that we are human and scared at times in our decisions.

One of the reasons I am glad I am Lutheran. I think there is a difference between being open to life and taking foolish risks. If I had recieved the same diagnoses…I would at the very least have my tubes tied. I want to be around to see my kids grow up.

 

[TarkanAttila]

I have 3 children. Actually wanted 4 but when my 3rd child was born I had complications. The Dr. told me after the fact that 98% of the women who had what I had have an emergency hysterecomy after delivering a stillborn baby or a baby with multiple, multiple handicaps. My baby was ok but the Dr. actually slept in a recliner next to my hospital bed the whole first night due to this complication. He told me 25 years ago he would never tell a Catholic woman not to have anymore children but he felt he must tell me not to have anymore due to the high risk of added complications. He had seen this problem one other time in 38 years of practice and the other woman and baby died. My husband had a vasectomy 3 months later. I know according to the Catholic teachings we have committed a grave sin but we felt we were doing this so our 3 children would have a Mother. I have been told I didn’t trust God by doing this but my husband and I felt we couldn’t take that risk. I don’t regret it. We are very active in our Church, attend Mass at least once a week if not more and feel ok about our decision. We know God is a forgiving God and that we are human and scared at times in our decisions.

One of the reasons I am glad I am Lutheran. I think there is a difference between being open to life and taking foolish risks. If I had recieved the same diagnoses…I would at the very least have my tubes tied. I want to be around to see my kids grow up.

So you are glad to step on God’s toes instead of working with or around Him?

No offense, but while I kinda understand the problem and sympathise, I myself would have asked for guidance from a priest, or a canon lawyer, or both first. I do not know if a vasectomy is the right way, or a hysterectomy, or something else, but… I would have asked first.

It’s not legalism to want to do the right thing the right way. It’s sensible. No shame in asking for advice.

 

[Will_S]

I know according to the Catholic teachings we have committed a grave sin but we felt we were doing this so our 3 children would have a Mother. I have been told I didn’t trust God by doing this but my husband and I felt we couldn’t take that risk. I don’t regret it. We are very active in our Church, attend Mass at least once a week if not more and feel ok about our decision. We know God is a forgiving God and that we are human and scared at times in our decisions.

God is forgiving indeed. He forgives all who repent.
If you aren’t willing to repent, however, then you can’t expect forgiveness.
Repentance in this case includes the surgical reversal of the vasectomy.

 

[Spirithound]

Repentance in this case includes the surgical reversal of the vasectomy.

The Church does not require the reversal of the vasectomy.

 

[Spirithound]

One of the reasons I am glad I am Lutheran.

How can you be glad that you follow a particular moral code? You follow the code because you believe that it is true, not because of the particular consequences of the articles of the code.

 

[mcteague]

Thank you once again for not doing your research and adding to the humongous piles of inaccurate judgements people have made about the Catholic Church and its members. You a feminist or something?
.

I probably do deserve a bit of a rebuke for the excessive hyperbole of my response. Really more of an exasperated response to several posts I have read here than this one in particular.
Of course it is not official Catholic doctrine that women are only good for childbirth. And It would be wrong to dismiss church teaching as anti-woman. It does value woman. But think some valid patriarchal arguments can be presented. But one should not paint with to broad a brush. Which is perhaps what I did

I certainly defend Catholics in their right to view procreation and contraception according to their religious beliefs. It is just that I sometimes find the rigidness of some people difficult to take. If the poster had said 15 or 50 children many of the responses would have been the same. If doctors told her contraception ment certain death ( a rather bazaar condtion I admit), the letter of the law, abstainence only view is mostly what people here would put forward. I just find it a bit unreasonable.

Next time you are in church look around. Most of those families you see with two or three children are practicing contraception. Fifty years ago they all would have had seven or more. Your priest knows that they are practicing contraception. Should he condem their sins from the alter?

None of us live in pretechnical agrarian societies where large families were often a financial necessity. Is is possible that although the underlying ideas about birth and love and sex are valid in our modern world, that perhaps the people who wrote these laws lived in a different world and might not have imaginined the one we live in?

So I will say again that I was not commenting on official Church teaching. There have been some antiwoman and patriarchal tendencies in history. But the Church is probably not specifically more guilty of this than other institutions. And it does value women.

So I admit my post was excessivley hyperbolic. But there are still interesting issues to think about. And finally to the person who wrote about the joy of their sixth child, as though that was an argument. I don’t understand your point. People can have as many children as they want. I am not against children. I am quite happy for you being happy with your six children. I am not against babies. I like babies. I used to be one myself.

 

[TarkanAttila]

I probably do deserve a bit of a rebuke for the excessive hyperbole of my response. Really more of an exasperated response to several posts I have read here than this one in particular.
Of course it is not official Catholic doctrine that women are only good for childbirth. And It would be wrong to dismiss church teaching as anti-woman. It does value woman. But think some valid patriarchal arguments can be presented. But one should not paint with to broad a brush. Which is perhaps what I did.

Oh yeah? There’s no room for your fancy “Hyper-bowling” here on Catholic Answers. Because we take things WAY TOO SERIOUSLY on here.

Kidding. Just take a breather before writing a post, k? It’ll make you look a lot more… what’s the vogue term for intellectual popularity these days? Tolerant? Free-thinker-y?

Whatever. Just keep your head on your shoulders when you post, and you’ll be fine, I think.

I certainly defend Catholics… ** I just find it a bit unreasonable.**

I don’t blame you. It’s meant to be extreme. The Church, when it comes to discipline, is like the Marines. The Church does not want to risk losing even one man to Death in the name of a creature comfort. That is why she is so strict, and “unreasonable” - because the Church wants to cultivate the strongest Christians possible because God only wants the strongest possible. What for? To fight evil.

Next time you are in church look around. Most of those families you see with two or three children are practicing contraception. Fifty years ago they all would have had seven or more. Your priest knows that they are practicing contraception. Should he condemn their sins from the altar?

Bluntly, yes. All preachers, Catholic or not, should preach against what they teach is evil. It is the burden of the priest to stimulate his congregation to turn from their immoral habits. It is his job. Shame on the priest who gives his parish “feel-good” homilies that don’t encourage moral growth.

But not all families with fewer than 27 kids is using contraception. Many may be. My mother, however, is a diabetic and had great difficulty conceiving. So I and my sister were adopted.

Oh, and not all families with eight or ten kids are born from the same mother. That is, I know one family that has, like ten kids. I think at least five of them are adopted.

None of us live in pretechnical agrarian societies where large families were often a financial necessity. Is is possible that although the underlying ideas about birth and love and sex are valid in our modern world, that perhaps the people who wrote these laws lived in a different world and might not have imagined the one we live in?

Actually, unless you’re, like, Warren Buffett, no bank account could compare in fiscal wealth to the large family. Did you know the government shells out around half a million dollars to cultivate a single college graduate? (This number may have increased in the past few years.) They expect DOUBLE that back in taxes within the lifetime of a college graduate, you see. The government sees human beings as a wise investment. Why don’t the rest of us? After all, more humans necessitates more jobs (service, food-growing, medical, construction, etc). The only way to create less poverty (by percentage) is to create more people. More humans equals more wealth.

The sentimentality of the modern age is well-intentioned, and cute, but fiscal suicide. I’ve never heard of a country that was made richer by DESTROYING its resources.

Thank you for explaining yourself. That was very brave of you, and we appreciate your point-of-view in the discussion. Really. It gives me something to do besides playing Civilization 3.

 

[gthompson]

To Wills: To reverse a vasectomy when my husband is 52? We did speak to a priest and a couple Doctors. At the time (26 years ago) it was the safest thing for us to do. After this I actually had pneumonia 4 times in 2 years due to the stress on my body. I now have scar tissue in my lungs. I am a RN now and knowing what I know now it was the best decision because at the time I didn’t realize how close to death I was. We had tried Natural Family Planning but due to other problems it wasn’t working for us. Sometimes a person has to use common sense too. I know a girl now who is 40 and used NFP and got pregnant and just delivered a 28 week old baby who weighed 1 lb 13 ounces.

 

[KathyKaye]

I have 3 children. Actually wanted 4 but when my 3rd child was born I had complications. The Dr. told me after the fact that 98% of the women who had what I had have an emergency hysterecomy after delivering a stillborn baby or a baby with multiple, multiple handicaps. My baby was ok but the Dr. actually slept in a recliner next to my hospital bed the whole first night due to this complication. He told me 25 years ago he would never tell a Catholic woman not to have anymore children but he felt he must tell me not to have anymore due to the high risk of added complications. He had seen this problem one other time in 38 years of practice and the other woman and baby died. My husband had a vasectomy 3 months later. I know according to the Catholic teachings we have committed a grave sin but we felt we were doing this so our 3 children would have a Mother. I have been told I didn’t trust God by doing this but my husband and I felt we couldn’t take that risk. I don’t regret it. We are very active in our Church, attend Mass at least once a week if not more and feel ok about our decision. We know God is a forgiving God and that we are human and scared at times in our decisions.

I want to thank you for responding to my question: Is 5 children enough?

I am new to the group and seemed to jump right into the frying pan. I am in the process of rooting out untruths in my life and this one popped up, as I mentioned earlier, in my Bible Study and I couldn’t find a source that affirmed it either - so I came to you. I am from a very Catholic family and have practiced and studied the faith all my life and yet I still carried this misconception. Thank you for setting me straight. The reason I couldn’t substantiate this thought was because it was totally in error.

I find it interesting that I did know and believe the right answer, but that 5 children fulfilled the law was still there in my mind causing confusion. I have no idea where I picked this up along the way, but I will stand on firmer ground if I should hear it again among my family and friends.

Thank you again for your support and help and forgive me if my question seemed unenlightened - God is not finished with me yet.

 

[KathyKaye]

Oh yeah? There’s no room for your fancy “Hyper-bowling” here on Catholic Answers. Because we take things WAY TOO SERIOUSLY on here.

Kidding. Just take a breather before writing a post, k? It’ll make you look a lot more… what’s the vogue term for intellectual popularity these days? Tolerant? Free-thinker-y?

Whatever. Just keep your head on your shoulders when you post, and you’ll be fine, I think.

I don’t blame you. It’s meant to be extreme. The Church, when it comes to discipline, is like the Marines. The Church does not want to risk losing even one man to Death in the name of a creature comfort. That is why she is so strict, and “unreasonable” - because the Church wants to cultivate the strongest Christians possible because God only wants the strongest possible. What for? To fight evil.

Bluntly, yes. All preachers, Catholic or not, should preach against what they teach is evil. It is the burden of the priest to stimulate his congregation to turn from their immoral habits. It is his job. Shame on the priest who gives his parish “feel-good” homilies that don’t encourage moral growth.

But not all families with fewer than 27 kids is using contraception. Many may be. My mother, however, is a diabetic and had great difficulty conceiving. So I and my sister were adopted.

Oh, and not all families with eight or ten kids are born from the same mother. That is, I know one family that has, like ten kids. I think at least five of them are adopted.

Actually, unless you’re, like, Warren Buffett, no bank account could compare in fiscal wealth to the large family. Did you know the government shells out around half a million dollars to cultivate a single college graduate? (This number may have increased in the past few years.) They expect DOUBLE that back in taxes within the lifetime of a college graduate, you see. The government sees human beings as a wise investment. Why don’t the rest of us? After all, more humans necessitates more jobs (service, food-growing, medical, construction, etc). The only way to create less poverty (by percentage) is to create more people. More humans equals more wealth.

The sentimentality of the modern age is well-intentioned, and cute, but fiscal suicide. I’ve never heard of a country that was made richer by DESTROYING its resources.

Thank you for explaining yourself. That was very brave of you, and we appreciate your point-of-view in the discussion. Really. It gives me something to do besides playing Civilization 3.

I want to thank you for responding to my question: Is 5 children enough?

I am new to the group and seemed to jump right into the frying pan. I am in the process of rooting out untruths in my life and this one popped up, as I mentioned earlier, in my Bible Study and I couldn’t find a source that affirmed it either - so I came to you. I am from a very Catholic family and have practiced and studied the faith all my life and yet I still carried this misconception. Thank you for setting me straight. The reason I couldn’t substantiate this thought was because it was totally in error.

I find it interesting that I did know and believe the right answer, but that 5 children fulfilled the law was still there in my mind causing confusion. I have no idea where I picked this up along the way, but I will stand on firmer ground if I should hear it again among my family and friends.

Thank you again for your support and help and forgive me if my question seemed unenlightened - God is not finished with me yet.

 

[joclucsylv]

It seems that you are supposed to breed until you die in childbirth. People will lay flowers on your grave. They will say you made the supreme sacrifice and that you were a good Christian woman.
This is how it was for most woman for centuries. This is what some people here want to return to. Sorry you were born female. People here want you to believe that this is all you are good for. And that your life means nothing except as a perpetual breeding machine
Most people in Church just ignore extremist views like this. And just try to live good lives.
I suggest you do the same. It would be nice to see your grandchildren one day.

I am sorry everyone. I find humor in this post though I know it’s not true. But i have to say after having a discussion about birthcontrol with hardcore NFPers I do kinda see her point…in a humorous way.

 

[joclucsylv]

I want to thank you for responding to my question: Is 5 children enough?

I am new to the group and seemed to jump right into the frying pan. I am in the process of rooting out untruths in my life and this one popped up, as I mentioned earlier, in my Bible Study and I couldn’t find a source that affirmed it either - so I came to you. I am from a very Catholic family and have practiced and studied the faith all my life and yet I still carried this misconception. Thank you for setting me straight. The reason I couldn’t substantiate this thought was because it was totally in error.

I find it interesting that I did know and believe the right answer, but that 5 children fulfilled the law was still there in my mind causing confusion. I have no idea where I picked this up along the way, but I will stand on firmer ground if I should hear it again among my family and friends.

Thank you again for your support and help and forgive me if my question seemed unenlightened - God is not finished with me yet.

That’s one beautiful thing about our faith. I learn more about the faith everyday and I love it. I listen to CDs put out by Catholic lighthouse media and I find that an awesome way to water my faith so that it grows more and more and more!!

 

[merne9]

i have never heard this before. when my husband and i were married the priest asked something along the lines of, will you welcome all the children God gives you and raise them in His church? i would have remembered if he said, …welcome no more than 5…

 

[Spirithound]

To Wills: To reverse a vasectomy when my husband is 52? We did speak to a priest and a couple Doctors. At the time (26 years ago) it was the safest thing for us to do. After this I actually had pneumonia 4 times in 2 years due to the stress on my body. I now have scar tissue in my lungs. I am a RN now and knowing what I know now it was the best decision because at the time I didn’t realize how close to death I was. We had tried Natural Family Planning but due to other problems it wasn’t working for us. Sometimes a person has to use common sense too. I know a girl now who is 40 and used NFP and got pregnant and just delivered a 28 week old baby who weighed 1 lb 13 ounces.

The safest thing for you to do would have been to abstain from sexual relations.

 

[Alix1912]

I am sorry everyone. I find humor in this post though I know it’s not true. But i have to say after having a discussion about birthcontrol with hardcore NFPers I do kinda see her point…in a humorous way.

Agreed, I found the post funny as well, for the exact same reasons, because there are extremist out there who seem to think it’s true.