Are abortion and the death penalty morally equivalent?

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In both instances, someone is being killed. One case that stands out in my mind is Timothy McVeigh. He had said that he wasn’t scared to die, but he was scared of spending the rest of his life in prison. So, why wasn’t he given life in prison? That, I think, would have been a more appropriate sentance. Give him what he most fears.

Beyond that, there have been many cases where it was found that an innocent person was on death row. With that in mind, don’t you think it’s possible that innocent people were being put to death?
 
Christy Beth:
In both instances, someone is being killed. One case that stands out in my mind is Timothy McVeigh. He had said that he wasn’t scared to die, but he was scared of spending the rest of his life in prison. So, why wasn’t he given life in prison? That, I think, would have been a more appropriate sentance. Give him what he most fears.

You could be right about that! 👍

Beyond that, there have been many cases where it was found that an innocent person was on death row. With that in mind, don’t you think it’s possible that innocent people were being put to death?
Well, that is a failure of our justice system and doesn’t really speak to the intrinsic good or evil of the death penalty itself. Still, if the offender can be kept safe from harming others and receive the justice due to his crime by not imposing the death penalty, then that is the option the Church would have the state make.
 
There are two good reasons for the death penalty, from my viewpoint.

However, we have to first address a point from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”
That phrase is the tip-off that we are talking about prudential judgment, not dogma. It is an evaluation of the current state of affairs in penal systems.

Thus it obviously cannot be “dogmatic teaching on faith and morals”. After all, which penal systems in which countries? Is the US penal system equivalent to Rwanda? As penal systems exist now, or as they exist in 10 years? Will they still show such improvements 1000 years from now, or will we have gone through another empire collapse with a long period of Dark Ages? (Remember, dogma is an eternal truth.) Who is making a judgment on the ongoing capability of different penal systems for “effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm”?

Getting back to reasons for the death penalty, first what about penal systems where death row prisoners murder other prisoners or guards? What about the penal system in Columbia or California or elsewhere, where drug lords routinely rule their organizations from jail, planning and ordering executions of judges, prosecutors, or rival gangs?

There is an advantage to finality.

Also there is the issue of defending society from the criminal. For example, what about this recently published study,GETTING OFF DEATH ROW: COMMUTED SENTENCES AND THE DETERRENT EFFECT OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT from The Journal of Law & Economics at the University of Chicago Law School. Here is a brief summary:
This paper merges a state-level panel data set that includes crime and deterrence measures and state characteristics with information on all death sentences handed out in the United States between 1977 and 1997. Because the exact month and year of each execution and removal from death row can be identified, they are matched with state-level criminal activity in the relevant time frame. Controlling for a variety of state characteristics, the paper investigates the impact of the execution rate, commutation and removal rates, homicide arrest rate, sentencing rate, imprisonment rate, and prison death rate on the rate of homicide. The results show that each additional execution decreases homicides by about five, and each additional commutation increases homicides by the same amount, while an additional removal from death row generates one additional murder.
If a single execution does, in fact, prevent five murders – or even worse, if a single commutation causes 5 additional murders – doesn’t that argue for the death penalty? After all, the CCC tells us: “Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. …”

Does it make a moral difference whether we know ahead of time the names and addresses of the 5 people whose lives are saved? I don’t think so. After all, God knows even if we do not.
 
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rfk:
If a single execution does, in fact, prevent five murders
Did the number of murders increase after the European nations abolished capital punishment?
 
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wolpertinger:
Did the number of murders increase after the European nations abolished capital punishment?
Actually, both the crime and murder rates have been steadily increasing in Europe for 30 years.

England has seen the biggest jump. As they have progessively exterminated firearms, their crime rates have skyrocketed.

That said, the study was a US study. Since we are talking about prudential judgment, not a matter of universal faith and morals, the conditions in the US could very well be different that the conditions in other countries, and thus the best policy can differ from country to country. That is also entirely consistent with the Catholic moral position on subsidiarity.
 
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Della:
How so? Did he not say: “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s”? Did he tell soldiers (the police of the day) to lay down their arms and let criminals run wild? Did he not submit to the proper authority of his time and allow himself to be crucified rather than protest that he had come to abolish all that? I don’t see where Jesus nullified the right of the state to enforce the law. St. Paul also said that the soldier carries his sword to uphold the law and that Christians were subject to that law just like their pagan neighbors. That is what I see when I take all of the NT into account and not just those passages that seem to support pacifism.
Christ’s stand on capital punishment was contrary to what was the law of the OT. It is also contrary to the expansive view of giving to caesar what is Caesars.

Remember the situation when He talked about giving to Caesar, it was about returning to Caesar what had Caesar’s likeness upon it, the coin.

Now if we are made in God’s image do we return to God or to Caesar?

As for Paul, if taken literally as you have done, his words from Rom would justify the obedience that the SS gave to Hitler. (we know that Paul was trying to not upset the Roman Authorities with his speech so keep it in perspective.

As for Pacifism, if we are not always trying to encourage pacifism along with the other values of Jesus, then we deserve what we get. Unfortunately people who tend to denigrate pacifism, do it in a vacuum, without giving pacifism the strength of the righteousness of the rest of Jesus’ message. As a result instead of judging the success of pacifism as a whole system, we judge it on its ability to succeed as a last resort, at which time it is doomed to failure.

Peace
 
The Church punishes those who procure an abortion with automatic excommunication (Cannon 1398).

I have a poll going on another link on Cahtolic Answers forums. Over half of those taking the poll, believe that the Church punishment of excommunication, if unreconciled with the Church, spiritually puts souls to eternal death.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=8628

Is the Church punishment of automatic excommunication the moral equivalent to abortion?

I think not!

God commanded Moses, who is not without sin, to throw physical stones to protect the body of His Church. Jesus commands Apostolic Successors, who are not without sin, to throw spiritually deadly stones to protect the body of His Church.

At the web site Throwing Stones you can see Christ’s words authorizing Apostolic Successors to use the spiritually deadly sword of His mouth to protect the body of His Church.
geocities.com/athens/forum/3325/stones.html

American capital punishment, like the spiritually deadly punishment of Church excommunication, protects the body of people from harm.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
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hermit:
The church opposes abortion and the death penalty, are they morally equal?

Abortion is taking the life of an innocent individual which is clearly murder.

Executing a murderer who has demonstrated total disregard for the sanctity of human life is also opposed by the church. Why?
Abortion & the death penalty are equal, BUT !!! the person on death row has been given a chance to prove their guilt or innocence, the child is guilty :tsktsk: Abortion is a sin against the Holy Spirit, because the Spirit of Life, is denied the opportunity of breathing Life into that little innocent soul.
 
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hermit:
Yes but our prison system is seriously flawed so incarceration, though effective in theory, is a total failure.

Most criminals are repeat offenders. Need Proof? My daughters college roommate was raped and murdered by someone who had been released only two weeks before by a liberal judge. He had been incarcerated for several attempted rapes.

The death panalty may not be a deterrent to crime, but it sure is a deterrent to repeat offenders.
Well, actually, as a matter of statistics, the deterrent effect of the death penalty is very much in question. Furthermore, while most criminals are repeat offenders, but not all criminals re-offend.

Most damning to the death penalty, however, is the obvious injustice with which it has been carried out in the past. Consider the shocking number of those on death row who have had to be released in the past decade or so because the availability of DNA evidence has exonerated them. Consider how many poor defendants are executed, and how rare it is for a rich murderer to be executed. Consider that our current President, while governor or Texas, refused to prohibit the execution of the mentally retarded, who cannot appreciate the gravity of their actions. Furthermore, we do have the ability to put a person away for life and have it really mean FOR LIFE. We do not appear to be a nation that can bear the extreme moral burden of execution, and we so have other options.

I think the question you raise is whether or not our handling of rapists should be re-examined very seriously. I think it should.
 
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BLB_Oregon:
Well, actually, as a matter of statistics, the deterrent effect of the death penalty is very much in question.
But there is evidence of deterrence. See post #23 above.
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BLB_Oregon:
Consider the shocking number of those on death row who have had to be released in the past decade or so because the availability of DNA evidence has exonerated them.
Actually, I consider the number of people who are released from death row upon appeal for any number of reasons to be evidence that our system has multiple layers of safeguards. It is actually a plus that people who have any doubt of guilt get screened out in an arduous process.

You cannot point to a single case where an innocent person was executed.
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BLB_Oregon:
Consider how many poor defendants are executed, and how rare it is for a rich murderer to be executed.
Consider that poor defendents commit the overwhleming majority of violent crimes, including murder.
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BLB_Oregon:
Consider that our current President, while governor or Texas, refused to prohibit the execution of the mentally retarded, who cannot appreciate the gravity of their actions.
Not true. If someone cannot understand it is a crime, or assist in their defense, then they do not stand trial. Any executions in Texas or elsewhere are subject to years of judicial review through both state and federal courts, up to and including the Supreme Court of the United States. There is no way an execution occurred in Texas while Bush was Governor that did not pass extensive legal review.
Furthermore, we do have the ability to put a person away for life and have it really mean FOR LIFE.
One of the major reasons capital punishment is supported by an large majority in this country is the frequent early release of criminals who re-offend. That includes criminals on a supposed “life sentence”. Your assertion “we do have the ability to put a person away for life” is not proven in practice.
 
Bob,

Jesus clearly preached against capital punishment with His " let he who is without sin cast the first stone" admonition.

That statement answers those that insist that the laws of men take precedence over the wishes of Jesus. It allows capital punishment, but only at the hands of the sinless.

And since the greatest commandments in the opinion of Jesus were the first two, it is readily apparent that there is no one who remains sinless at the switch, trigger or plunger.

Peace

PS, there is a nice justification for capital punishment in the book of Mormon, but that isn’t the same Jesus, is it?
 
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hermit:
The church opposes abortion and the death penalty, are they morally equal?

Abortion is taking the life of an innocent individual which is clearly murder.

Executing a murderer who has demonstrated total disregard for the sanctity of human life is also opposed by the church. Why?
Let’s examine the Catholic Catechism…very briefly…

In regards to abortion:

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral
evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law.

In regards to the death penalty:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

The Catholic Church identifies abortion as being “intrinsically evil”…whereas the recourse to the death penalty is not intrinsically evil. “Abortion” and “Capital Punishment” are not equal.

Most Catholics are uninformed on these issues.
 
In my humble and simple opinion, only God should be determining the start - and end - of life. Period. A life is a life is a life…

If someone takes another’s life, let him be accountable to our Creator on Judgement Day.
 
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BLB_Oregon:
Well, actually, as a matter of statistics, the deterrent effect of the death penalty is very much in question. Furthermore, while most criminals are repeat offenders, but not all criminals re-offend.

Most damning to the death penalty, however, is the obvious injustice with which it has been carried out in the past. Consider the shocking number of those on death row who have had to be released in the past decade or so because the availability of DNA evidence has exonerated them. Consider how many poor defendants are executed, and how rare it is for a rich murderer to be executed. Consider that our current President, while governor or Texas, refused to prohibit the execution of the mentally retarded, who cannot appreciate the gravity of their actions. Furthermore, we do have the ability to put a person away for life and have it really mean FOR LIFE. We do not appear to be a nation that can bear the extreme moral burden of execution, and we so have other options.

I think the question you raise is whether or not our handling of rapists should be re-examined very seriously. I think it should.
BLB

That’s the fault of our legal system. We have a set of laws for the haves and another set for the have nots. If the law were applied equitably, as it should be, we wouldn’t have so many miscarriages of justice.

Will Martha Stewart spend time in jail? Yes, when the sun rises in the west.

We have turned our prisons, excuse me, correctional institutions into spas for criminals. Criminals get three meals a day, recreation, a warm bed, medical care, etc. Our homeless people get a grate to sleep on and dumpsters to eat out of. Where is the social justice? Prisons are supossed to deter crime.

Ever hear of anyone going to Devils Island twice?
 
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trimont:
In my humble and simple opinion, only God should be determining the start - and end - of life. Period. A life is a life is a life…
Fair enough that you qualified that as your personal opinion. But it directly conflicts with the teaching of the Catholic Church.
 
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