Are all believers really agnostic?

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What is the real difference between someone who says they believe in God and someone who says they are agnostic?

I could see how presenting a solid metaphysical argument for God like a cosmological argument could get a self-proclaimed Agnostic to say "You know, that’s really interesting…

…but we can’t know for sure. I have no idea if this God really exists."

So how do you proceed from there? What is the real difference between a self-proclaimed agnostic and a believer? Does the believer claim 100% certainty?

I don’t think I would claim 100% certainty. So does that make me agnostic?
 
As far as what they think/feel (and really, what a person thinks and what a person feels are to a great extent inseparable) it’s debatable how relevant this really is, even to God. A person will be judged on what they proclaim, what they do, and how they govern themselves interiorly.

The average believer might experience the occasional pang of doubt and the average agnostic might for inexplicable reasons occasionally find themselves thinking that perhaps there really is/must be a God. These are thoughts/feelings that can be responded to in vastly different ways. Although I believe the logical argument is that there is a supernatural intelligence, there’s a lot more to a person’s life and merit than they believe intellectually.

Which is why it’s easiest to take people at their word. If they identify as an agnostic, then they’re an agnostic. If they identify as an adherent of X religion, then they are.
 
I think what bugs me is that “agnostic” seems to be the fad or “hip” thing to be. I’m not doubting that there are serious agnostics out there. But how do you get through the smugness of someone’s indifference?

For example, I know people who respect my faith and my particular intellectual approach to it. But these same people will be like “meh, I just don’t think we know for sure.”

At this point, do we just stay content knowing that faith is a grace? Maybe we just have to assume that these people can only be moved forward by grace?
 
Why do you think The Almighty leaves us with a state of affairs which for many may be ambiguous? Ie, meh, we don’t know for sure.
 
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This reminds me.

Considering that Aquinas considered God’s existence and essence to be one, what does it mean for us to not know his essence?

It seems to suggest God’s essence is extra from his existence.
 
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His mind was too fast. Hence he had 5 scribes write for him. He’d alternate from scribe to scribe so that the most amount of his thoughts could be written.
 
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I thought he had a message from God telling him he’d done well. Then shortly after he stopped dictating, writing or otherwise.
 
OH yes after Jesus spoke to him he told someone “everything I’ve written is straw” (compared to what he’d seen). He wasn’t saying it was all false. He was just saying his words couldn’t come close to capturing what he’d seen.
 
It simply means our perception is limited, which makes sense given that we’re less than God. We can only perceive GOd’s existence, not his essence. If he could see God’s essence and his existence, we’d be equal to God.
 
I don’t know. I think you could make a case for it, and certainly I’ve discussed it on CAF before.

I refer to myself as agnostic but if I feel the need to clarify I call myself an agnostic atheist - indicating my knowledge is a different position to my beliefs. It’s useful on CAF as a faith-based forum. But I think it’s unnecessary to make that distinction most of the time because you can then apply it to anyone.
 
RealisticCatholic said:
I think what bugs me is that “agnostic” seems to be the fad or “hip” thing to be. I’m not doubting that there are serious agnostics out there. But how do you get through the smugness of someone’s indifference?

For example, I know people who respect my faith and my particular intellectual approach to it. But these same people will be like “meh, I just don’t think we know for sure.”

At this point, do we just stay content knowing that faith is a grace? Maybe we just have to assume that these people can only be moved forward by grace?
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Sure. I mean, some people are just apathetic so there’s no interest. Some others, like myself, are happy with the position they’ve come to. Either way, there’s not much talking can do for either of those groups.

I don’t know as I’d call it smug, though. I think it would depend on the circumstances.
 
RealisticCatholic said:
For example, I know people who respect my faith and my particular intellectual approach to it. But these same people will be like “meh, I just don’t think we know for sure.”
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Why do you think The Almighty leaves us with a state of affairs which for many may be ambiguous?
 
Lee1 said:
I thought he had a message from God telling him he’d done well. Then shortly after he stopped dictating, writing or otherwise.
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I thought he fell ill and died while writing the Summa which is incomplete.
 
I think you’re both right - that he stopped writing after he saw Jesus (who told him “you have done well, Thomas, what do you ask from me?” and Thomas responded “Only you, Lord”) and didn’t complete Summa. But I need to double check.
 
RealisticCatholic said:
But how do you get through the smugness of someone’s indifference?
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That I think would depend on why you want to get through their smugness.
If it’s to win a point then fair enough, as long as you realise it’s about ego involvement.
If it’s to evangelise then pray and if you still can’t get through then youve done all you can.

I personally think that God, the Creator of all things does not play dice, as Einstein once said in a different context.
The freedom we have to choose Him and His way I would liken to telling a class full the rules and to behave and then monitoring them for obedience. Those who abide by His rules are chosen, He chooses the best from those who are willing and able to abide with Him and show fidelity to the faith.

As long as all people have been educated in His way then we all have a fair chance. It’s almost like survival of the fittest in a way. Maybe.
 
I’m agnostic in a lot of things. As in the definition of “not knowing”. For instance, I do not have a biology degree, my mother does. There are many places in biology I am agnostic. With regards to faith, I KNOW God exists. I went through a phase and thought about if he didn’t, and I was horrified by the results. If life is meaningless, why exist at all? I’ve been an agnostic in a religion sense, there’s a difference. If you’re curious how I came to the realisation that God does exist, it did include almost dying, so there’s that.
 
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