Are all believers really agnostic?

[Lee1]

Me too.
I guess some people have to experience that degree of helplessness before they will believe.
God bless you, you lived!

 

[gregoryphealy]

Agnostics claim that we cannot know whether or not God exists. Gnostics claim that we can know. It’s not to be confused with whether we currently possess that knowledge (as in adamhovey1988’s biology analogy in the post above), but rather it’s a statement on the epistemic capacities of man. Think of it like a tree:

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[fisherman_carl]

So how do you proceed from there? What is the real difference between a self-proclaimed agnostic and a believer? Does the believer claim 100% certainty?

There is natural faith and then there is supernatural faith. The baptized Christian is given the theological virtues of faith, hope and love which are beyond the natural ability of that person. One can come to a natural belief in God like Aristotle for instance. However, the kind of faith the Christian believer has is a gift from God. (see Ephesians 2:8-10).

This theological virtue is what justifies but it is not merely belief in the existence of God which could be had naturally, but has as it’s object future union with God. Aquinas talks about this theological virtue of faith as a kind of hope for the beatific vision. (… assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.- heb 11:1). It is not enough to believe in God. One must have a real hope for one’s own personal salvation through Christ. It is not an absolute certainty (presumption) but a real trust and confidence that God will save you. This is the good news of salvation through Christ. That we can have a real assurance of salvation that is not based on us or our goodness but based on the power of Christ to save us and to transform us into His image.

For salvation it is not enough to just believe in God’s existence. Even the demons believe and tremble. A Christian must be a disciple of Jesus. He must have the supernatural faith, hope and charity in his heart. And these virtues are not static but can grow.

For an agnostic arguments for God’s existence could lead him to a natural faith. If he genuinely seeks the truth and is open to it. If he seeks God with all his heart and mind he could find what he seeks. But it is really God’s grace that will lead him to a supernatural faith.

 

[TK421]

I think what bugs me is that “agnostic” seems to be the fad or “hip” thing to be. I’m not doubting that there are serious agnostics out there. But how do you get through the smugness of someone’s indifference?

For example, I know people who respect my faith and my particular intellectual approach to it. But these same people will be like “meh, I just don’t think we know for sure.”

At this point, do we just stay content knowing that faith is a grace? Maybe we just have to assume that these people can only be moved forward by grace?

I would say (a little bit of theorizing on my part) that that a large portion of the world population and possibly the majority of the world population has had a somewhat agnostic mindset since the dawn of humanity. Intellectual atheism didn’t come about until ~3000 years ago, but people are often only religious when it is immediately suitable to their self-interest. This was the clear pattern of the Israelites in the Old Testament, and the prophets spent a lot of time talking about that exact problem. You can apply that pattern to all of humanity. Success and stability means people tend to become apathetic to religion.

So if you keep a busy schedule, have a lot of work to do, tests to pass, real life achievements to unlock, etc., life becomes kind of like a video game where you’re constantly concerned about leveling up and there’s very little room for introspection or contemplating religion. Or if it’s not being a workaholic, you can just as easily get wrapped up in consumerism or meaningless entertainment, and the end result is the same. Mankind is an inherently religious being but we’re also easily distracted. This is why so many theologians and mystics (and not just in Christianity) have repeatedly said that noise is our enemy and silence is our ally.

So there’s no easy solution to getting people out of that state of apathy when they have hundreds if not thousands of other things that are occupying their attention. History and rational debate are on our side, but I think our #1 weapon is our willingness to suffer and take risks. That’s what you see in environments across Africa where Christianity is threatened by Islam, or where it is increasingly under pressure from President Xi, etc. Even Sweden is experiencing a surge in religious vocations in an otherwise highly secular culture. The faith flourishes under difficult conditions.

And yes: it is impossible to be moved towards God without grace. God is the one who converts.

 

[fhansen]

What is the real difference between someone who says they believe in God and someone who says they are agnostic?

I could see how presenting a solid metaphysical argument for God like a cosmological argument could get a self-proclaimed Agnostic to say "You know, that’s really interesting…

…but we can’t know for sure. I have no idea if this God really exists."

So how do you proceed from there? What is the real difference between a self-proclaimed agnostic and a believer? Does the believer claim 100% certainty?

I don’t think I would claim 100% certainty. So does that make me agnostic?

In my experience-and in Church teaching-faith is a gift, of grace, that we can accept or refuse. It’s already there; He’s already there. Our job is to take that gift and run with it. This requires overcoming pride-that thing that leads the whole world around by its nose, making us afraid of other’s opinions, while conspiring to keep us apart from God. An example:

"Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God." John 12:42-43

And the more we run with that gift of faith, responding to and cooperating with grace, the more faith grows, the more God is revealed to us IOW.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Heb 11:6

 

[IWantGod]

What is the real difference between someone who says they believe in God and someone who says they are agnostic?

An atheist Agnostic would say i see no evidence for God, and on that basis think it reasonable to not believe while allowing for the possibility of it being true.

A Christian can be Agnostic in the sense that while they choose to believe (have faith) in God, they see no tangible evidence of his existence either in a philosophical or scientific sense. I would consider a fideist an agnostic.

Agnosticism about possible knowledge is usually used as an excuse not to believe in something. In my personal opinion agnosticism just means i don’t know.

If you see good reason to believe in terms of evidence, but do not know for sure, i would not consider you an agnostic. Otherwise everybody is an agnostic since you can only know for certain that you exist and that you are changing. However i would claim that the fact that you are changing necessitates the existence of God.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

If God can be arrived at through reason, then just an intellectual engagement for starters. Not speaking about an ego boost or a conversion necessarily.

Just the intellectual question of what it means to be agnostic.

Some people are open to aliens but do not “believe” in them — not because their will is hardened, but because their intellect leads them to this position.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

Thanks!

But even on the level of intellectual faith. One is no longer agnostic if he has even this kind of natural belief in God.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

So there’s no easy solution to getting people out of that state of apathy when they have hundreds if not thousands of other things that are occupying their attention. History and rational debate are on our side, but I think our #1 weapon is our willingness to suffer and take risks. That’s what you see in environments across Africa where Christianity is threatened by Islam, or where it is increasingly under pressure from President Xi, etc.

I really like this, thanks.

 

[prayerrider]

I would add reason, to faith. Those who doubt the existence of an omnipotent creator aren’t thinking logically. They should study a little cosmology–the theistic conclusion is unavoidable.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

If you see good reason to believe in terms of evidence, but do not know for sure, i would not consider you an agnostic. Otherwise everybody is an agnostic since you can only know for certain that you exist and that you are changing.

Thank you, I think this is the real deal.

It’s a matter of degree. I do not have 100% absolute certainty that my cats are still at my house, but I have every reason to think so.

Similarly, I may not have “100%” intellectual certainty in God’s existence, but I have reason to believe so, so I am not agnostic.

However i would claim that the fact that you are changing necessitates the existence of God.

True, I accept this. But people do not always have this immediate intuition (they need a good argument like Aristotle or Aquinas). Plus it takes a bit more to get to an Unmoved Mover to the God of Christian theism.

 

[IWantGod]

True, I accept this. But people do not always have this immediate intuition (they need a good argument like Aristotle or Aquinas). Plus it takes a bit more to get to an Unmoved Mover to the God of Christian theism.

i agree. Even if one can have 100% metaphysical certainty, which i think i do, people still challenge the idea that metaphysical principles such as those employed by Aquinas actually apply to objective reality.

And even if Aquinas succeeds in that level of certainty, which i think he does, it does not allow us to have 100% certainty that any religion is true.

May i suggest a humble 90%