Are All Called To Be Saints?

[Melchior_1]

I find it rich that you brushed me off once saying:

More pointless ad hominem attacks and bringing other threads into this one.

And you proceeded to do exactly that.

Now I’m operating under a delusion? Who said that was even my point of view? For someone who claims to be baptised in the spirit it looks like you could do with a fresher course on the virtues.

 

[jmj1984]

I find it rich that you brushed me off once saying:

And you proceeded to do exactly that.

You’re on my ignore list Melchior, I honestly don’t have the time to deal with you anymore.

 

[jmj1984]

Exactly. What I’m getting from his opinion is that we are not equal in the eyes of God: that those of us who are not called to be Saints are to spend the rest of eternity in purgatory or hell. Sounds like predestination to me.

If you’re getting that from anywhere its not from me or the sources I provided but your own interpretation of them.

Not all of us are called to the same degree of glory, not all saints are equal, not all of us even are called to be saints and not all of us will be saved.

As for your comment on predestination, I’m confused, you are aware that predestination is De Fide yes?

When we get to heaven, whether the church recognizes us or not, we become Saints. IMHO, the canonization of Saints is an exercising of the Church’s authority to bind or loose. She is declaring that a certain saint is already in heaven. This is ascertained by the Church through the miracles that occur with the Saint’s intercession–proof that the saint is now in the company of Christ. Now, the Church canonizes a Saint also so that the faithful, us saints, can follow in his/her footsteps.

Indeed but not all of us are going to be saints as regards canonised saints, we are not all equal nor will we be in heaven. That isnt my opinion thats catholic teaching or is someone going to argue we’re equal to St francis or st Dominic or St maximillian kolbe and so on?

Indeed we need grace to be a Saint. But it doesn’t stop there. Yes, grace enables us, but we need to freely choose and love Him extraordinarily. This was what St. Ignatius of Loyola meant with “magis.” In the First Principle and Foundation found in the Spiritual Exercises…

*The human person is created to praise, reverence, and serve God Our Lord, and by doing so, to save his or her soul.

All other things on the face of the earth are created for human beings in order to help them pursue the end for which they are created.*

It didn’t say… “Certain human persons were created…”

And? I didn’t say we werent created to save our souls, I did say we werent all called to be saints, something you’ll notice St Ignatius Loyola likewise omits.

Mind you, that if it’s absurd to aspire to be a Saint then we better ask Fr. Robert Barron to remove that part from the “Catholicism” series, because it’s going to be used as aninstructional video too. Which means it’s not only opinion, it’s Church teaching.

Its church teaching because someone used it in an instructional video? So if someone makes an instructional video on liturgical abuses and so on thats also church teaching? Even more surprisingly I didn’t know instructional videos were part of the magisterium!
No, its his opinion, it is not however the opinion of anyone I’ve cited.

Could it be that the quotes from the Doctors of the Church were used out of context? Because St. Therese was talking about her vocation, not about being a Saint, in that quote.

It could, but then you could always check the sources rather than just believe they’re out of context, that is after all the point of me citing authority. I fail to see how the fact St Therese is speaking of her vocation means that actually her opinion suddently isnt relevant She is clear that not all are equal, not all are called to the same level of glory and not all will be saved.

 

[TrueLight]

JMJ, I would say we are all called to be “perfect”. Jesus said “be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect”.

Now we may not attain perfection, but we should certainly strive for it. So we are all called to be saints (and I don’t mean canonized Saints).

Would you agree?

 

[jmj1984]

JMJ, I would say we are all called to be “perfect”. Jesus said “be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect”.

Now we may not attain perfection, but we should certainly strive for it. So we are all called to be saints (and I don’t mean canonized Saints).

Would you agree?

It very much depends how you describe perfect. We are all called to conform ourselves to Gods will but that does not mean we are all called to exercise the virtues in a heroic way or receive the same amount of graces in order to do so. I would say we are all called to be saved rather than we are all called to be saints in order to omit this confusion, as the former cannot be misinterpreted whilst the latter can and often is.

 

[Indyann]

It very much depends how you describe perfect. We are all called to conform ourselves to Gods will but that does not mean we are all called to exercise the virtues in a heroic way or receive the same amount of graces in order to do so. I would say we are all called to be saved rather than we are all called to be saints in order to omit this confusion, as the former cannot be misinterpreted whilst the latter can and often is.

What a bunch of baloney! “We are all called to be saved”, sounds very Protestant.

“We are all called to be saints”, is not only accurate, but very Catholic.

Argue all you want, you won’t be convincing anyone!

 

[jmj1984]

What a bunch of baloney! “We are all called to be saved”, sounds very Protestant.

“We are all called to be saints”, is not only accurate, but very Catholic.

Argue all you want, you won’t be convincing anyone!

And your proof for that is… oh thats right you’re not going to provide any just claim that your position is more catholic The idea that all are called to be saved is De Fide, something every catholic should know.

 

[Indyann]

And your proof for that is… oh thats right you’re not going to provide any just claim that your position is more catholic The idea that all are called to be saved is De Fide, something every catholic should know.

Okay, does “saved” mean to attain heaven?

Is everyone who is in heaven a saint? (small s)

Therefore if “all are called to be saved”, are not “all called to be saints?”(small s)

Are you sure you are not Bill Clinton?

 

[jmj1984]

Okay, does “saved” mean to attain heaven?

Is everyone who is in heaven a saint? (small s)

Therefore if “all are called to be saved”, are not “all called to be saints?”(small s)

Are you sure you are not Bill Clinton?

If you use the small s, then yes. But that is not what the OP or the people who subsequently moved here from another thread are arguing. They believe that actually we are all called to be Saints, that is what I disagree with. Or if they just mean saints with small s they have a very strange way of going about arguing this.

And what on earth is the bill clinton reference for?

 

[Indyann]

If you use the small s, then yes. But that is not what the OP or the people who subsequently moved here from another thread are arguing. They believe that actually we are all called to be Saints, that is what I disagree with. Or if they just mean saints with small s they have a very strange way of going about arguing this.

And what on earth is the bill clinton reference for?

I was the OP and I did not use capital S at all. Always small s. I used capS in the title because it is the title.
I think the problem stems from your inconsistency in using big S and small s. They have different meanings when addressing the word “saint”.

You have posted several times, that “we are not called to be saints.” That is not a true statement.

The Clinton thing came because you are very argumentative over simple concepts, just as he was.

 

[jmj1984]

I was the OP and I did not use capital S at all. Always small s. I used capS in the title because it is the title.
I think the problem stems from your inconsistency in using big S and small s. They have different meanings when addressing the word “saint”.

You have posted several times, that “we are not called to be saints.” That is not a true statement.

The Clinton thing came because you are very argumentative over simple concepts, just as he was.

Apologies then but no it isn’t a small thing. Its important firstly because its wrapped up in the idea of universal salvation and secondly because the truth has a value all of its own. I have repeatedly made clear and indeed stated in my very first statement ‘we are not called to be saints’ that I meant canonised saints. It was in the context of another thread where that statement was being made. If you cannot be bothered to take the time to properly read what someone is writing before complaining about them then don’t criticise the other person for your failings.

 

[choliks]

Indeed but as St Therese says ‘Then opening the Gospels, my eyes fell on these words: "Jesus, going up into a mountain, called unto Him whom He would Himself. They threw a clear light upon the mystery of my vocation and of my entire life, and above all upon the favours which Our Lord has granted to my soul. He does not call those who are worthy, but those whom He will. As St. Paul says: "God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy."I often asked myself why God has preferences, why all souls do not receive an equal measure of Grace.’

Respectfully, JMJ. This is St. Therese talking about her VOCATION and her life… not Sainthood.

 

[jmj1984]

Respectfully, JMJ. This is St. Therese talking about her VOCATION and her life… not Sainthood.

With respect the statement supports my view, not all are give equal amounts of grace, so I fail to see what difference that makes

Besides if you read the statement in context it applies to far more than just her vocation, it applies also to her spiritual life and more. 'They threw a clear light upon the mystery of my vocation and of my entire life, and above all upon the favours which Our Lord has granted to my soul

 

[choliks]

Just one last question: which particular doctrine of the Church was expounded by the Saints you mentioned?

 

[jmj1984]

Just one last question: which particular doctrine of the Church was expounded by the Saints you mentioned?

I’m afraid I don’t understand the question, do you mean by their lives, their writings or the citations I’ve provided?

 

[choliks]

I think the Saints would be happy with ‘just’ being saints, seriously though I know what you mean but I disagree. And I do so not for the sake of it or being stubborn but based on the authentic teaching of the church as expounded by the two Doctors of The Church I have cited.

This one. Could you kindly point me to the official teaching of the Church so I can understand you better.

do you mean by their lives, their writings or the citations I’ve provided?

If it’s just these, then I can’t consider it as “authentic teaching of the church,” because not all writings of Saints are considered official church teaching. If you want to say that you follow their theology, then we don’t have qualms.

 

[jmj1984]

This one. Could you kindly point me to the official teaching of the Church so I can understand you better.

If it’s just these, then I can’t consider it as “authentic teaching of the church,” because not all writings of Saints are considered official church teaching. If you want to say that you follow their theology, then we don’t have qualms.

The authentic teaching would be that not everyone receives equal amounts of grace, nor am I saying that I follow their theology, though I would question the orthodoxy of anyone who questioned Aquinas’ theology. Nevertheless as 2 doctors of the church have said that people do not receive equal amounts of grace, the burden is on someone else to show they do.

Doctors of the church are not just important because they established theological systems, many of them didnt, but because they faithfully expounded church teaching. It is no use therefore to get out by saying ‘oh thats just their theological system’ particularly as St Therese of Liseux and St Thomas Aquinas came from completely different theological backgrounds and traditions

 

[valient_Lucy]

I think we’re all called to strive for holiness. But we’re not all called to be saints.

A tennis player may learn to serve by observing and imitating Roger Federer’s serve. But for a tennis player to believe that he will one day serve the way Roger Federer does is the height of self-delusion.

 

[zab]

We are all called to be saints. We are just not all destined to be canonized.

How much grace we are given depends on how much we have emptied ourselves in order to be filled with God’s grace. I must decrease so that God may increase in me.

 

[cecilia97]

“I have no desire to debate the idea that ‘all are called to be saints’ because the idea is inherently absurd, alien to catholic tradition and little to do with this thread.”

This was posted on another thread. I have heard Mother Angelica say, “we are all called to be saints” in several of her talks.

Is it really alien to Catholic tradition? Is it really absurd?

If I remember rightly, the Baltimore Catechism stated that our purpose as humans in to know God, to love God, and to serve God, and to worship Him forever in heaven.

Who worships God in heaven? Saints. Yes, we are all called to Sainthood. Right now we are saints (little s). We hope to become Saints (big S) in heaven.