Are All Called To Be Saints?

[guanophore]

The Church decides who goes to Heaven and not Christ ! A novel idea but not one which I would agree with.

This is that reading comprehension problem at work again. Jmj is not saying that the Church “an not Christ” decides who goes to heaven (becomes a saint). But God chooses to work through the Church to reveal those who are in heaven. The reason we know certain people are there is because this has been disclosed to the Church by God.

For Catholics, there is no dichotomy of “The Church and not Christ”. For us the Church is the Body of Christ. He is her Head, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. We don’t suffer from the deficient concept of Church espoused by most of our separated brethren that the Church is only the “body of believers on earth”.

 

[cecilia97]

That is indeed all I meant we will all be saints, in that we will be saved in heaven. But we are not going to be equal and probably not canonised.

It’s good to say what you mean the first time.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Lucy, do you have a reference to the above? Thanks.

I can find it later, but they’re both found within the writings of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas. The latter talks about three crowns given in heaven: the greatest crown to the martyrs, the second to the virgins, and the third to the doctors. St. Augustine, in his letter to the consecrated virgins (proto-nuns) warns them not to become too arrogant over the married women. Yes, he tells them, virginity trumps marriage in heaven, but martyrdom trumps virginity, and a married woman may become a martyr and then outrank a virgin in heaven.

There will be exceptions, as Christ described in the parable of the men who work in the vinyard. There may be some non martyrs who will be given the reward of martyrs, and married people who will be given the reward of virgins, as a sign of God’s generosity. just as some who worked in the vinyard for an hour were given the reward of those who worked all day. I take that to mean that some people who lived ordinary lives, married, had children, and died ordinary deaths will be given great glory in heaven as a sign of God’s generosity. But a non-martyr has no right to receive the reward of a martyr, and a married person has no right to receive the reward of the consecrated religious.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Each person has his own particular vocation, and each of us have certain works that God has prepared for us to accomplish. Persons who are “heroic” will tell you that they are just doing what was their duty, and what anyone would have done in that situation. We are all equally called to fulfill our respective vocations “heroically” in that we are to live out God’s grace in our lives in a way that radically contradicts the world in which we live. We are all equally called to lay down our lives, take up our cross, and live the Gospel.

The problem with this kind of thinking is that if everything is heroic, then nothing is heroic.

 

[guanophore]

The problem with this kind of thinking is that if everything is heroic, then nothing is heroic.

I agree with your point, but my point is that heroism is never what is sought by those who are later called heroes. All the saints would eschew such a characterization of their lives and deeds. Part of what it means to be a hero is that humility that seeks not it’s own.

If all of us pursue the task of fulfilling God’s fullness for our lives, we will be available to Him should an heroic act be needed. Who knows that we might be called upon, as Maximillian, to give our lives in place of another? But if we pursue always the readiness to do so, then should the need arise, as he was, we will be ready. There are no doubt thousands of such heroic acts that occurred during the war, where a person was able to give their lives to protect another.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

This is that reading comprehension problem at work again. Jmj is not saying that the Church “an not Christ” decides who goes to heaven (becomes a saint). But God chooses to work through the Church to reveal those who are in heaven. The reason we know certain people are there is because this has been disclosed to the Church by God.

For Catholics, there is no dichotomy of “The Church and not Christ”. For us the Church is the Body of Christ. He is her Head, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. We don’t suffer from the deficient concept of Church espoused by most of our separated brethren that the Church is only the “body of believers on earth”.

God reveals to no one not even the Church who is in Heaven. John was greatly grieved when he discovered this fact in the revelations given to him by Christ Himself !

Revelations 5:4
“Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?’ But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside.” (Revelation 5:1-4)

**This is that reading comprehension problem at work again. **
Why so nasty and rude ?
Your Brother in Christ,
Richard

 

[valient_Lucy]

I agree with your point, but my point is that heroism is never what is sought by those who are later called heroes. All the saints would eschew such a characterization of their lives and deeds. Part of what it means to be a hero is that humility that seeks not it’s own.

If all of us pursue the task of fulfilling God’s fullness for our lives, we will be available to Him should an heroic act be needed. Who knows that we might be called upon, as Maximillian, to give our lives in place of another? But if we pursue always the readiness to do so, then should the need arise, as he was, we will be ready. There are no doubt thousands of such heroic acts that occurred during the war, where a person was able to give their lives to protect another.

I agree with that.

 

[TrueLight]

I can find it later, but they’re both found within the writings of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas. The latter talks about three crowns given in heaven: the greatest crown to the martyrs, the second to the virgins, and the third to the doctors. St. Augustine, in his letter to the consecrated virgins (proto-nuns) warns them not to become too arrogant over the married women. Yes, he tells them, virginity trumps marriage in heaven, but martyrdom trumps virginity, and a married woman may become a martyr and then outrank a virgin in heaven.

Thanks for th reference. I would love to hear opinions on this. I personally don’t feel that anyone knows who will be awarded what in heaven or in what hierarchy. God searches the heart. You can be religious or a priest and still battling the same things common to most men.

Is this the opinion of a Doctor of the Church AND Church teaching?

This all ties in to graces awarded to different people.

 

[guanophore]

God reveals to ***no one*** not ***even the Church*** who is in Heaven. John was greatly grieved when he discovered this fact in the revelations given to him by Christ Himself !

Revelations 5:4
“Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?’ But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside.” (Revelation 5:1-4)

The only reason that the Church can know who is in heaven is through the merits of Christ, by whose Spirit these things are revealed. No one is claiming hat we are worthy to look into heaven and know these things. The origin of that knowledge is divine.

**This is that reading comprehension problem at work again. **

Why so nasty and rude ?
Your Brother in Christ,
Richard

Having a disability is not a character flaw. Some people just have trouble reading and understanding what others write. Some people reason differently, and some see the world in a way that no one else does. These are perceptual conditions over which a person does not have control. It would have been better for me not to characterize it as a “problem” because it is not something one can necessarily fix. It causes “problems” in communication because the person who suffers from such perceptual difficulties often does not communicate to others what he intended, or understands things from a text that were not intended. I apologize if I came across sounding nasty or rude, it was not my intention.

 

[TrueLight]

Having a disability is not a character flaw. Some people just have trouble reading and understanding what others write. Some people reason differently, and some see the world in a way that no one else does. These are perceptual conditions over which a person does not have control. It would have been better for me not to characterize it as a “problem” because it is not something one can necessarily fix. It causes “problems” in communication because the person who suffers from such perceptual difficulties often does not communicate to others what he intended, or understands things from a text that were not intended. I apologize if I came across sounding nasty or rude, it was not my intention.

With all due respect, you need to stop rationalizing. You said it to two people and both times it was very uncharitable.

That’s like asking someone, “You’re deaf?”, out of frustration and then rationalize that some people have hearing difficulties.

 

[jmj1984]

The Church decides who goes to Heaven and not Christ ! A novel idea but not one which I would agree with.

Thats not what I said but anyway. Look I used to be a protestant so I know where you’re coming from, if you want to start a thread on that feel free to do so but please don’t de-rail this one.

 

[jmj1984]

It’s good to say what you mean the first time.

These things are complicated, besides which in the first post which this thread was based on I did say what I meant. I apologise if it wasnt clear.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

Thats not what I said but anyway. Look I used to be a protestant so I know where you’re coming from, if you want to start a thread on that feel free to do so but please don’t de-rail this one.

I’m sorry that you have seen it fit to cast cheap insults upon myself and my creed.
Your Brother in Christ,
Richard.

 

[guanophore]

I’m sorry that you have seen it fit to cast cheap insults upon myself and my creed.
Your Brother in Christ,
Richard.

No one cast anything on you at all, Ricky. Ther was no insults here upon yourself or your creed at all. Jmj converted to the Catholic faith from growing up Protestant. All he said was “I know where you are coming from”, and that you did not understand his post. Seems like you might have misunderstood something, or are being overly defensive.

 

[jmj1984]

I’m sorry that you have seen it fit to cast cheap insults upon myself and my creed.
Your Brother in Christ,
Richard.

Oh please, grow up. I’m just gonna save myself the trouble and add you to my ignore list.

 

[ALotLessThumb]

All are called to work on their own holiness with the graces God provides.

I think we confound ourselves in attempting to define the hierarchy born of the gifts we are given ourselves. No, not everyone is called to canonization but as Jesus pointed out by referencing that the first will be last, God’s Kingdom, his social order, is not experienced in this world. So we have way to determining what it means to be a big “S” Saint in the next world. But the Church is given the ability to speak of who is a Saint (in possession of heroic virtues) and they are guides for our own benefit.

Which is why it dismays me to see someone try to make the argument that “we are not equals” in this world or the next- and that it is an American fallacy. This isn’t necessarily true.

It’s a social-psychological thing. A society that hasn’t a clearly defined hierarchy of the “spirit-world” (to keep it as broad as possible) like the ancient Greeks, Jews, and Chinese will show signs of having a very hierarchical and legalized social order held sacrosanct. The opposite is seen throughout the Middle Ages where we are blessed with the insights of our saints and theologians who, even if given true glimpses, are heavily colored by a world where the old order (Imperial Rome) collapsed and the allegiances between tribal warlords (many whose power started as auxiliary generals in the Imperial army) which were ever shifting. This was not a well-ordered world. This world turned into the one that Calvin and Hobbes, Machiavelli and Molina built.

Our modern problem is that socially, when speaking of the afterlife, we all (in the secular world) are agnostic and vague just like the social order we live in this world.

But we are blessed with the Church which reminds us of the Kingdom awaiting and is beacon as to what are to do to be worthy of such a Kingdom.

So those heroic virtues most pleasing to God in this world are those most beneficial to God’s children. They are available to all equally but not all are called to exercise and manifest them in this world and for his Church. And the reason for this awaits us on the other side.